Thats enough

News: Welcome to the Canadian Paper Money Forum.

Brent stated {Clearly, you gentlemen cannot keep this discussion at a professional level.
 
THREAD CLOSED.}

First off,I was attacked personally.I defended myself from this uncalled for situation.
Second,I'm a she not a he.
Third,as stated,I find the situation disgusting,and wish to withdraw my membership or registration immediately.
It's people like the poster that started that discussion that turn others away,I imagine your women membership levels will not set any records.Can you stand constructive criticism?We'll see if this post is deleted.That will speak loud and clear.
Please suspend me,forever.

Note-Brent did e-mail me privately.Your judgement was fair.I had not read your mail before my response.

 

The method of discussing a subject is one thing, to attack a person is not a proper method.
All people have a slightly different persceptive on a subject, and are free to discuss in any manner except using the person attack method.
One of the reasons that the old ebay forum was dropped was that few could just say here is the item. They just had to slam the seller, the product or past perfomance, thus the forum was finally buried.
Even nice things said led to all sorts of slamming. The object of this forum is to discuss paper money, and all the little things that go with it.

The forum is open to collectors, dealers, speculators and interested parties. The rules were set after masses of problems.

Females are few and far between in collecting circles like this one. Don't take the comments to heart.

Rick

What a pitty that Brent had to close this forum!  :-/  It was so interesting to read, and informative!

I also regret that ____gusto was "attacted" (or at least put on the extreme defensive) as she was for her opinions.  

MEMBERS IF YOU ARE SEEKING DIALOGUE AND OPINIONS PLEASE KEEP AN OPEN MIND TO THOSE THAT DON'T NECESSARILY COINCIDE WITH YOURS   :exclamation RESPECT PEOPLE :exclamation!  Although I'm just a newbie (been collecting for 28 years) and am not a moderator... I have to "Stick my neck out" here and take a stand.  We should not be scaring away new members, and members with interesting comments.

I know its hard to be impartial and objective when writing things in black and white...but I do hope that forum participants will at least try in the future.  I'm sorry that ___gusto had this negative first time experience on CPM forum.  WE NEED MORE FEMALE PARTICIPANTS -not less!

There is no doubt that grading is a touchy subject....due to its very subjective nature.  Some good advice did come out of it: buyer beware, the collector should become educated (its worth the time/investment), it takes practice and discussion grading, closet collectors need to go to shows and participate so that they're not shocked when trying to sell a so called UNC (which is AU), buyers have a choice as to who they will buy from, collectors can be both buyers and sellers, overgrading does occur, paper money collecting may be getting pressure from American dealers, be careful with your investments, and so on.

I suppose the "bottom line" (if there is one) is that this grading proposal is an indicator of how popular collecting paper money has become.   It is indeed a fast growing past time.  Perhaps that's good news for all of us  

James

I agree with Walk the Water, his general comments are well founded.

The object is to discuss the subject at hand, disagree if you will. Not everyone agrees that notes will be slabbed, or given sheldon numbers for grades. There are standards for grading now that leave a lot open to interpretation. Not really different than coins, but a banknote is just a piece of paper, and easily damaged by over handling. Creases, flicks, bends and other minor handling cause damage and lower the potential grade.

Several people have stated how difficult it is to grade a note inside a plastic holder. Yet this is the only thing that keeps them protected. Slabs for notes protect them even better.

Rick

The slabs themselves, whether one uses a grading service, and whether the grading service uses a numeric grading or sticks to CPMS grading standards are all separate issues.  If I want the additional protection for a note that a plastic slab provides I can buy them independantly without having the note graded by a grading service.

Being an old fart, I have trouble relating to numeric grading.  

Choice UNC63: The note could have two counting creases - one on each side. A counting crease is a small bump or ridge in the body of the note.

Choice UNC62: A long counting crease. The body of the note may not be totally crisp. There may be a small nick in the border of the note.

UNC60: This note could have three or four minor defects. Creases in the borders of the note. Three counting creases. There may be a small nick in the border of the note.

To me the above described UNC62 and UNC63 notes are AU and the UNC60 is probably an EF+ by CPMS standards.  I would have less of an argument with numeric grading if the apparent upgrading of notes didn't occur.  This is very confusing to less experienced buyers.... buying an UNC note - graded as an UNC60 and getting an EF+.  

It's confusing to me as well.  I recently bought a note at an auction which is listed in Brent's note registry as an AU.  It was graded as an UNC in the auction.  The note does have a single counting crease so by CPMS standards is AU or AU+.  By CCGS standards it would likely be CHOICE UNC63.  The dilemma is that the price difference in the Charlton Catalogue between AU and UNC is $1200.  Given this disparity how would you have bid?  Do you bid an amount appropriate to AU or to UNC?

I believe the basis for most grading arguments is the first three words of the description of  uncirculated which is “ A perfect note “.

Setting such a high, improbable to ever be achieved, standard is both frustrating and confusing to collectors, dealers and especially to those who actually search through fresh bricks of notes. To make matters even worse the uncirculated description goes on to add that an even more  “perfect note " should be afforded a premium.

Consider the following materials and processes in getting a “perfect “ note into the hands of collectors:

Perfect pulp, rolls of perfect paper, perfect cutting of the blank sheets, perfect handling of the paper until it reaches the printer, no bending of the paper before it gets to the perfectly set up press, perfectly toned inks applied, perfectly dried, application of  the raised dots without distorting the paper, handled perfectly flat again on to skids, run through the perfectly aligned numbering machines, handled with care to the cutter tables, cut 100 sheets at a time in perfect register and without too much pressure to hold the sheets down, add perfect replacement notes ( BABN ), perfectly sleeve each 100 notes with care so notes 000 and 001 don’t get any glue on them, wrap 10 bundles together and send to the shrink wrap machine for a perfectly good squash, place with care on skids for movement to distribution centres, deliver to branch and eventually to brick searcher. The brick searcher   can’t find a “ perfect “ note so he chooses only the best of the thousand to pass along to dealers or collectors.

One must also take into account that the printing process is a “ good enough, let em roll “ people process. To the workers notes are just pieces of paper.

My opinion is the intention of the BoC was to get reasonably nice notes for a reasonable price for the 250,000,000 or so notes they contract for each year.

The ten dollar Lasting Impression sets were a real eye opener. There were many complaints about damaged notes in the sets.

Relate the above to the making of collector coins. Specially prepared dies and planchettes, coins handled with gloves. A simple process, dedicated to produce only the best, with few if any “ perfect “ MS70 graded coins resulting.

The point I am trying to make is that it might be a good idea to simply delete those three little words that start the description of uncirculated. This help to slow the push towards the numbers game.

Constructive criticism of my opinion is welcome.

Gary  

Slabbing a note is indeed a separate issue from this topic.

I suggested that slabs will keep the note from damage primarily because is prevents fondling of notes, something that too many people do with notes in plastic holders.

The holder issued by the Bank of Canada in the $10 and $5 notes sets a couple of years ago are first class, and these can be purchased from a couple of sources.

Grading of notes to use Sheldon numbers needs to be revised and tightened up a lot.

If it was me buying a note in auction, I bid according to the grade I perceive it to be. If its not enough, too bad. Someone else can have it then.

Rick

I thought the topic was closed or is that just to me? Take a good look, I did not call anyone names although I was called names.

Glassman - when you ask for feedback, then extensively quote and throw sarcastic commentary to each phrase of the statement you disagree with - then you are being neither diplomatic, fair, nor open-minded in a public forum.  No wonder you got "Shut down" and I'm surprised to see you defending yourself here!

Sudzee is discussing the process of printing paper money (and coins) and raising some interesting points as to the challenges of producing a perfect UNC note.  He knows from experience how hard it is to secure a GEM.  RS Coins is discussing "slabbing" or sleeving notes because notes do get fondled at shows (I've seen this myself).  These topics relate to the finding, storing, and selling of high grade notes.  Yes some slight reference has been made to the coin system (again)... is that such a bad thing for a forum?
 
I think the added details of what you see on any note is critical when purchasing them in any grade.  For example, if it a note has edge tears, stains, pen/pencil marks, indentations, foxing, counting flicks, has been pressed, or lightly folded compared to creased- these details should be described/noted.  It seems a lot of people forget this part when selling or trading.  UNC and AU need to be given descriptions as well.  The huge difference of say   $1200  between an UNC and AU really is only a reality if that note is a scarce highly desired item.  Again, what this points out is: A) notes are good investments in the higher grades and B) a price is a negotiation process between seller and buyer (the buyer can always walk away) and C) you really should know how to grade if you are dealing with such "high end" paper money!

Perhaps some prudence should be considered in the heat of a bidding frenzie...which I suspect has happened at the last Torex.  A 2002 3 digit $10 Journey radar note just sold for $64.00 on eBay so it even happens in the virtual setting.  

Information is key (ladies and gentlemen)
Lets keep it "tactful, objective, and open minded" so it is shared freely

Just out of curiousity, are you referring to this radar?

I was watching this insert radar note all week but decided it was getting too costly for me, but not that bad of a deal.

Hi Folks,

Glad this topic is back in discussion. Food for thought:

SUDZEE makes excellent points about the natural imperfections that come with UNC notes simply due to the production process and inevitable human & machine handling. WALKTHEWATER (?) also is realistic about how the market operates and the utter necessity of collector education.

The CPMS grading system is one of several established by various organizations ( IBNS is another ). I personally do not follow the CPMS strictly since,as per the previous reference,  "a perfect note" is rare until you get into the 1960's and we are again losing the perfection with banding and other machine-handling problems. I would venture that barely one in a thousand notes from 1866 thru to 1954 would fit the CPMS UNC definition. Those that do are truly exceptional and definitely worth of a better description that just UNC , like any other, and certainly worth a significant price premium as well. Additionally, the CPMS allows a soft centre fold for AU but I would put that in the EF grade. There is no perfect system nor perfect graders anyway so, AS ALWAYS - LEARN TO GRADE !

It thus follows that there really are 'degrees' or 'types' or 'varieties' or 'grades' of UNC.  Take a typical $1 of 1935 or 1937. The UNC that came straight from the bank will, more than 99% of the time, have counting creases and some evident teller handling - just think of the number of times it must have been handled BY HAND ! The average note is thus an UNC 60. A note with light counting creases, little or no handling, decent but imperfect centering is, I would suggest, an UNC63 and worth perhaps 20-25% more than the UNC60. We then go to the near-perfect note that is well-centered, no counting creases or handling marks, nice paper without discoloration, etc. As good as it can be; a true premium note, scarce or rare in grade, thus an UNC65 or GEM note. Worth 50-100% more than an UNC60 ??

A knowledgeable collector will understand an appreciate these differences - indeed he/she is already looking for at least the UNC63 and preferrably the UNC65. The terms may not be used but the differences are well known and well apllied when selecting notes. Stamp collectors are especially sensitive to these issues as nuances of condition are important with stamps and reflected in the values.

A pressed note, I hasten to add, would not get passed an UNC60 in my view. There are those that disagree.

It might be interesting to post a proposed set of three mercifully brief definitions of UNC 60-63-65 and see what people think. I am now marking the numerical grade on new inventory and in the near future will use the terms more often in my lists, particularly on more expensive notes.

Sometime we need to separately talk about pressing and the value discount that might reasonably be applied to the large percentage of pressed notes which go through the maket every month.

And we need to discuss third-party grading/slabbing of Canadian notes. It is inevitably coming from US grading firms in a quantity and manner that will be impossible to keep out of the Canadian market. After all, if a collector or dealer can slab that UNC65 Gem 1937 $2 and get $300 versus $220 or so for a regular, undistinguished UNC, then it will happen.

Enough for now.

OleDon

Don's definitions on the multiple grades of Unc. notes needs to be elaborated.

Is it inevitable that notes will soon be graded by Sheldon numbers? Seems that it is coming quickly.

I predict there will soon be another note slabbing company in Canada.

Rick

OOPS   That is the very same 3 digit (insert) radar. .. I guess I was snoozing on (the numbers of) that one!
You are right -- it was actually a VERY GOOD DEAL!  

Perhaps I'm all wet on this: But I think we'll see the original Journey $10 notes do very well, as they've proven over and over again to be strong performers compared to the Bird series.  It begs the question: does this trend have something to do with the inferior paper quality?  Good UNC notes are harder to come by in the $10 Journey series (esp the 2003 notes: BEL,BEK,BEM, BEP/BER) I found quite a few flaws (rippled paper, pressure marks, smeared serial numbers) in these notes that came right from BEN/BEM bricks. I know Sudzee and some other Brick searchers have encountered the same difficulty (in finding a perfect note).

Anyway... Good to hear "Ole Don" and "RS coins" "Sudz" and "Huds" comments re: variations of UNC, slabbing, the printing process and the challenge of grading notes correctly in this and the original thread.  Let's all agree it is the market that will determine what happens to this high end level of paper money.   Don, in his infinite wisdom, has pointed out that a particular series (ie 1935) are a different kettle of fish when trying to find the UNC varieties.  It only stands to reason, that if the grading is more "standardized" than it could be a boon to the hobby, and to the market of rare 1935 and Dominion notes which are so scarce in top notch shape.  

I want to thank these gentlemen in sharing their insight, knowelge and predictions re: the grading and selling of these upper end notes.  I just hope that some day I will be able to afford a few  Presenly, I'm happy to find Very Fine examples not pressed in the 35 (& pre 35) issues.  I'm also an avid collector of the AU variety (a good deal in my opinion), although UNC obviously is the "holy grail" we all so desire.

Given the fact that there is still a good deal of "old guard" collectors perfectly satisfied with the present state of grading, there may emerge a 2 tiered kind of market where the "high end establishment" deal in the M65 kind of grading,  while the rest of us scoop up what we can.  
 

I don't see a two tied grading system. I think the old system will blend into a newer system.

VG, with a number attached is still a VG.
Unc. is more of a problem, Unc 60, or Unc 63, or Unc. 65 are really just Uncs with a numeric addition to the grade. For those that use it, Unc. 63 would be a better than average, while 65 would be a gem note.

Rick