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Topic: Certifying notes  (Read 9127 times)
starman
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« on: May 12, 2007, 02:59:48 am »

Just a question about getting notes certified. Does anyone know how to send notes through the mail to either CCGS or PMG without everybody all the way down the line knowing what's in the envelope or package?Also how do you insure something that hasn't been certified yet?
Hudson A B
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« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2007, 05:23:01 am »

Hi, before you go about doing so, I suggest reading about some of the pros and cons about the whole note Third Party Grading system.  Then you can make a decison, but I just want to make sure that you are aware of the issues surrounding them.  Thumb back through previeous threads and you will read a GREAT DEAL about it.

Sincerely,

Trying To Help.  H. A. B.

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Ottawa
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« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2007, 06:25:23 am »

Hi, before you go about doing so, I suggest reading about some of the pros and cons about the whole note Third Party Grading system.  Then you can make a decision, but I just want to make sure that you are aware of the issues surrounding them.

Hudson has made an excellent suggestion. PMG has certified a huge number of notes and by inspecting those that have appeared at shows, at public auctions and on eBay the consensus opinion is that PMG grading is quite erratic. I cannot comment on CCGS grading as they have certified far fewer notes, although I have formed the general impression that they are less erratic.

As mathematicians are aware, there are two distinct issues when one is studying a large quantity of data, i.e. accuracy and reproducibility. In the present context the data pool is a large number of certified notes. Firstly there is the issue of grading accuracy (i.e., being able to assign the correct grade) and secondly there is the issue of grading reproducibility (i.e., being able to assign the correct grade on a consistent basis). Being erratic implies not being able to assign the correct grade on a consistent basis. Having said that, it's important to remember that just because you may be consistent in your grading doesn't mean that you are being accurate as you could be making the same systematic error of judgment every time!

PMG appears to have problems because they certify such a huge number of notes from all sorts of different issuers (US, Canadian, world, old & modern) and they naturally tend to get careless from time to time. After all, the notes are being graded by human beings and not by machines. If you were to take a random selection of 100 PMG certified notes you would undoubtedly find a few (perhaps 5-10?) that have been overgraded and a few (perhaps 5-10?) that have been undergraded. We have all seen some PMG horror stories on eBay, e.g. an obvious VF certified as an AU, a pressed VF+ certified as an AU, a weak AU certified as an UNC, and the like.  Perhaps a disproportionate number of these poorly graded notes tend to find their way onto eBay as sellers might be embarrassed to display them publicly at shows?

Certified grading errors can make a huge difference in the catalogue value of a note. At the end of the day it's up to the buyer of a certified note to decide whether the advertised grade is reasonable or not. If you buy a note blindly based purely on its numerical certified grade then you could come to grief.

Certified notes that have been obviously overgraded will tend to be left in their holders whereas certified notes that have been obviously undergraded will quickly be removed from their holders and sent in again to be re-certified at a higher grade!  We've seen these things happen with certified coins in the past.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2007, 06:48:48 am by Ottawa »

" Buy the very best notes that you can afford and keep them for at least 10 years. " (Richard D. Lockwood, private communication, 1978).
friedsquid
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« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2007, 07:23:28 am »

I actually inquired about getting some notes certified at PMG and there are a number of issues depending on how the notes are submitted ie. through a registered dealer or through yourself once you join up. Costs also vary on quantity of notes submitted, turnaround time, cost of notes submitted etc.
I would suggest going directly to the PMG websites as it should answer most of your questions. 
The question I have is when shipping to the US is the turnover time always so long?
I ordered a note on EBAY and it took almost 6 weeks to get. The seller had never sold to a Canadian before and was shocked that it actually took that long concerned that it was not insured that it might have actually gone missing.  Just to test this, we each sent each other  an envelope that was empty except for two stiff pieces of cardboard on the exact same day . He got mine in 38 days and I got his in 42. (Weekends included). Does insurance speed things up.? I'm in Ontario and he was in Florida. The thing about registering it was that I assumed duty would be charged and I didn't want that extra cost.

FRIEDSQUID
« Last Edit: May 12, 2007, 07:25:54 am by friedsquid »



Always looking for #1 serial number notes in any denomination/any series
Ottawa
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« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2007, 07:37:51 am »

Does insurance speed things up.? I'm in Ontario and he was in Florida. The thing about registering it was that I assumed duty would be charged and I didn't want that extra cost.FRIEDSQUID

I always employ Express Tracked Post to the US and I use Canada Post's special pre-paid Express envelopes. I've never had to declare anything and have never lost anything (yet). Express to the US usually takes 5-7 business days depending on location.

" Buy the very best notes that you can afford and keep them for at least 10 years. " (Richard D. Lockwood, private communication, 1978).
friedsquid
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« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2007, 09:09:58 am »

Thanks for the info. I will definitely try that next time.
FRIEDSQUID



Always looking for #1 serial number notes in any denomination/any series
walktothewater
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« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2007, 12:30:58 pm »

Quote
I always employ Express Tracked Post to the US and I use Canada Post's special pre-paid Express envelopes

Great advice (thanks) but how do you get a note from the US without paying duty? 

I paid 12$ to have a so-called VF "1917 Lady Pat" sent to me via registered mail, and then was charged $18 in duty$  Altogether I think the note ended up costing as much (if not more) than book -- as it was over-graded.  The last time I'll buy anything from the US.  (However-- having said that -- I'm sure there's a majority of collectors who feel the same bias -- which may make notes that originate from south of the  border a good bargain (if they're correctly graded) and bidding is soft).

Quote
Certified grading errors can make a huge difference in the catalogue value of a note. At the end of the day it's up to the buyer of a certified note to decide whether the advertised grade is reasonable or not.

I think certifying errors is an excelent piece of advice Ottawa -- the many points (accuracy, reproducibility, etc) are all well taken.  I would also consider how rare/old the note is.  I wouldn't be keen on TPG recent (or common) notes. 

Mailing notes to these TPGraders is a HUGE turn off for me .. Express post (as Ottawa suggests) is the best way...and the costs just keep mounting to certify a note. 

I'm wondering-- can you deliver your notes personally to CCGS or PMG?

« Last Edit: May 12, 2007, 12:34:47 pm by walktothewater »

starman
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« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2007, 01:37:58 pm »

I was just wondering because I have a couple so-called "rare" notes(*AB&*FB 1's) I know the catalogue says X amount of dollars but thought maybe they might be woth more being certified.
rscoins
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« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2007, 04:07:24 pm »

Hudson's has a good point, the mail system will not insure notes or coins or other restricted items. Valuable notes, use Fedex to the US. Easier if you are nearer or in the US to mail items to them.

Canada Post will not insure notes. They simply will not. If it gets lost, too bad. It is possible to buy third party insurance for numismatic, many dealers purchase it from Hugh Woods, and insurance company in Toronto.

Rick
Ottawa
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« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2007, 07:05:03 pm »

I've probably sent more than 100 pre-paid Express Tracked envelopes to the US in the last year. Some of the contents were very heavy, e.g., 10 Canadian Silver Dollars, 15 large foreign silver coins, 50 Large Cents,  etc., but they all got through without a hitch. I always use corrugated cardboard to package these items so that no one can "feel" what's inside. In my experience, no customs declaration is necessary when using the pre-paid envelopes. I once asked a clerk at the Alta Vista Main Terminal Post Office in Ottawa if there was any maximum weight for the pre-paid envelopes and he jokingly(?) said that I could send a gold bar if it would fit! It's possible of course that US Customs opened some of these heavier packages but I never ever received any complaints from the buyers. However, I have had many complaints regarding "non delivery" of items sent by Regular (untracked) Mail so I now insist on Express Tracked Mail on any item valued at more than $40.

For items being sent from the US to Canada you can always ask the sender not to make any Customs declaration on the envelope, but in that case the US Post Office would probably not insure the item so it's a Catch 22 situation.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2007, 07:25:35 pm by Ottawa »

" Buy the very best notes that you can afford and keep them for at least 10 years. " (Richard D. Lockwood, private communication, 1978).
Ottawa
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« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2007, 06:24:31 am »

Hudson has made an excellent suggestion. PMG has certified a huge number of notes and by inspecting those that have appeared at shows, at public auctions and on eBay the consensus opinion is that PMG grading is quite erratic.

I've posted some fascinating images in another thread that illustrate the wide differences of opinion between PMG and some other commercial grading companies. You'll be truly shocked by the results (sample shown below)!

Just click on the following link:

http://www.cdnpapermoney.com/forum/index.php?topic=3785.150

{http://images.andale.com/f2/115/106/3433819/2007/5/13/7669_12.JPG}
 
« Last Edit: May 13, 2007, 07:31:04 am by Ottawa »

" Buy the very best notes that you can afford and keep them for at least 10 years. " (Richard D. Lockwood, private communication, 1978).
starman
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« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2007, 08:00:35 am »

 thank you for the insite Ottawa and to everyone else who responded. I thinks maybe I'll just leave my notes as they are.
 

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