Note Grading and eBay - "Tales from the Darkside"

News: Welcome to the Canadian Paper Money Forum.

I treat the stated grade in all eBay auctions for paper money with initial skepticism, unless the seller is recognized as a competent grader of Canadian paper money.  If an auction lists a note as UNC, I almost always send the seller an email that reads as follows:

Can you tell me if there are any folds, creases, bends, handling marks or other flaws in this note ?

I find the best way to examine a note is to hold it obliquely (at an angle) under a desk light. This will allow you to see any folds, bend or other flaws in the note more clearly.

Can you please send me high resolution scans / images of this note ? 

Many of you have read my recent posting regarding the 1954 million numbered notes that were descrided as UNC and turned out to be EF-AU.  I returned those notes and received a refund from the seller.

Now onto another recent eBay grading fiasco.  I recently purchased a 2006 $5 Journey replacement that was listed as a Buy It Now.  This note was described as follows:

You are bidding or buying on a 2006 $5 Canadian insert note with serial number AOH9549258 in a GEM UNC mintstate, no ripples ,perfectly centered with perfect square corners. Signatures Jenkins&Dodge BC-67aA (9.440M-9.560M)

See:        http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=290140543776

I quickly purchased this note as it was described as GUnc and had no ripples.  When the note arrived it had ripples and a prominent cutting cup.  I contacted the seller immediately and said I would like to return the note as it is not GEM Unc and has obvious ripples, and therefore the auction description is inaccurate.  The seller argued with me that the note is GEM Unc because it was pulled from a sealed brick.  I patiently explained the new grading standards and that my issue was that the note had ripples and was described as "no ripples".  After many emails back and forth the seller finally agreed to refund my money.  I received an email from the seller tonight that she received the note back and stating:

I received the bank note yesterday and I do not undestand what is the problem, the bank note is GEM UNC. 
I have shown it yesterday to 2 dealers yesterday and they said that it is GEM UNC so I don't know where you come from with your grading.  Does not even fall in the category of UNC-63.  I wiill make the credit anyways  because it is too much time consuming to waste on this issue....

I was surprised that this seller, who regularly sells Journey notes, would be so stubborn and veheminently deny that the note has obvious ripples.  This turned to utter amusement when the next note in sequence to mine was offered for sale on eBay by the same seller and the description read:

You are bidding on a 2006 $5 Canadian insert note with serial number AOH9549259 in a UNC-CHUNC mintstate, very light ripples that could be seen only under the light.

See:     http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290151638459

Just another ebay grading "Tale from the Darkside".

...Arthur

Did you still manage to get a refund? 

No offense mean't but so what? They're 40 and 20 buck notes and it is very possible the guy can't see what you're seeing. Hell, I run into that in real life with 'experts' all the time and it's usually on 2000.00 notes with 26 folds in em.
For example, that nice 1935 $1 SN 8 you posted a pic of in another thread, what grade was assigned to it by the previous owner? What grade did you give it?  Did you both agree?

I received a PayPal refund for the total amount including freight this evening.  A message from the seller was sent with the PayPal refund that read:

Sent correct item but client not satisfied....refund issued to close this file...I am not happy with this transaction...Considered closed

I guess this is all my fault for being a buyer looking for a bargain on eBay 


Note....All prospective buyers of security upgraded Journey notes that are described as GEM Unc should pay close attention to the last two digits of the serial numbers.  As a rule of thumb, notes with serial numbers ending in 35 to 99 will have cutting cups, thus making a grade of GEM Unc incorrect.  There are many such notes currently listed on eBay that are listed as GEM Unc and have obvious cutting cups based on the serial numbers.

Then it is safe to say that a GEM Unc note on eBay is "rare".    

From what I have seen again and again with many ebayers that describing there item as gem or unc are just ill knowledged people looking to make a few extra bucks and really dont care about there reputation or status or have very little interest in the true hobby of paper money collecting! So a word to the wise for everyone, is to be very carefull on ebay as far as grading goes! There are some very reputable dealers on ebay to deal with that you know you are getting a top notch note and no surprises.....    Jeff

From what I have seen again and again with many ebayers that describing there item as gem or unc are just ill knowledged people looking to make a few extra bucks and really dont care about there reputation or status or have very little interest in the true hobby of paper money collecting! So a word to the wise for everyone, is to be very carefull on ebay as far as grading goes! There are some very reputable dealers on ebay to deal with that you know you are getting a top notch note and no surprises.....    Jeff

Pretty much the same as dealing with people in the real world. eBay is an easy target but the real world isn't short of ill knowledged dopes.

From what I have seen again and again with many ebayers that describing there item as gem or unc are just ill knowledged people looking to make a few extra bucks and really dont care about there reputation or status or have very little interest in the true hobby of paper money collecting! So a word to the wise for everyone, is to be very carefull on ebay as far as grading goes! There are some very reputable dealers on ebay to deal with that you know you are getting a top notch note and no surprises.....    Jeff

At times like this one has to wonder why collectors are willing to pay immense premiums just for having the "privilege" of possessing a common note in unusually choice condition. If collectors continue to be willing (in fact eager) to pay huge premiums for a note or coin with virtually no handling marks then one has to wonder where the hobby is going. This grading obsession thing seems to be solely a North American phenomenon and it's obviously closely associated with the North American obsession for making quick and easy money. Collectors in Europe, which is where collecting really began, are more interested in the visual/aesthetic beauty than in the technical grade and third-party grading hasn't really caught on there and probably never will. We often forget that the third-party grading companies are making huge fortunes grading items that we should be able to grade ourselves. They must be laughing all the way to their respective banks ...

At times like this one has to wonder why collectors are willing to pay immense premiums just for having the "privilege" of possessing a common note in unusually choice condition.

- It's not just common notes but also the replacements and even the very scarce asterisk DF's.  I would be happy to own one in almost any condition (well VF or better).  However, now that the catalogue acknowledges the varying degrees of UNC (which is a good thing IMO), there'll be even more obsession over perfection.

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Collectors in Europe, which is where collecting really began, are more interested in the visual/aesthetic beauty than in the technical grade

Count me in on the aesthetic of a note -- I must be more European than North American!  I don't mind though because it seems like I can always get a good deal -- esp after a dealer has just had a nose to nose confrontation with a perfectionist!  I have no problem picking up the lower graded notes!

Now that the manufacture of Journey notes has become so inconsistent it is no wonder that there's concern for grading.  How many times do we see a "newbie" post that they've got some UNC notes from their grandfather's safety deposit box.  Upon seeing the scans they're EF at best!

Typically, the run of the mill eBay seller is not a reliable source of info on their notes-- squinty eye'd observations in half lit rooms is more common than not.  I would suggest that collectors who are dead serious about an accurately graded note buy from a known seller, one with excellent feedback, or claims of grading conservatively with full money back (no questions asked) satisfaction guarantees (f they must do their commerce online).  Otherwise stick to the brick and mortar, shows or live transactions where you can inspect the note personally.

At times like this one has to wonder why collectors are willing to pay immense premiums just for having the "privilege" of possessing a common note in unusually choice condition. If collectors continue to be willing (in fact eager) to pay huge premiums for a note or coin with virtually no handling marks then one has to wonder where the hobby is going. This grading obsession thing seems to be solely a North American phenomenon and it's obviously closely associated with the North American obsession for making quick and easy money. Collectors in Europe, which is where collecting really began, are more interested in the visual/aesthetic beauty than in the technical grade and third-party grading hasn't really caught on there and probably never will. We often forget that the third-party grading companies are making huge fortunes grading items that we should be able to grade ourselves. They must be laughing all the way to their respective banks ...

I like the Eurpoean attitude of aesthetic value   I was suprised in the Charlton grading, that ragarding the  birds series, there was no mention of a nice neat OSD being prefered over a fuzzy one.  It's a pretty noticable feature on the note! It's always all about lack of creases, which IMHO, is one factor.  I'd probably take a cleaner note with a crease over an unc note that is toned.