Private note grading ruining the hobby?

News: Welcome to the Canadian Paper Money Forum.

Another I'd like to hear from.Don O.
He has moved towards TPG,I wonder,would he participate in such deception,purely based on profit driven motives?

Again,fwiw,I met Don O at a Torex many years ago.I stood back from his tables and marvelled at a line-up 2-4 deep,perhaps 20-30 people waiting to examine his notes.I was told the wait would be at least 30 minutes.No other tables at the show were experiencing this kind of 'action'.

At any rate,I watched as a girl bought a $10.00 note,a 1954 $1.00 note,she expleined to Don she was new to the hobby.With all these people vying for Don's attention,he stopped and took at least 10 minutes with this young girl and her just purchased $10 note to explain and SHOW her the difference between an Original Unc and a pressed Unc,and why she would want to start collecting with Original notes.

I was impressed to say the least,given the amount of people buying high value notes,and many more waiting to buy or ask questions on much more lucrative business transactions.

In closing,this man does not strike me as colluding with TPG comapnies for that shameful  ;)word"profit"
But of course I could be wrong.

I agree with twoinvallarta, Andrew @ CCGS is a honourable man.  This is all done by experience.  In the past, I bought some notes from some dealers claiming that it is in UNC or org UNC.  When I got it, I found out it is not true.  so I sent it to CCGS for grading turn out 1 in EF, some in AU and the rest at UNC60 ~ UNC63 (nothing at UNC64 or UNC65).

You make good points...there are honorable people of course.
Collusion for profit may drive SOME, but not all of course.  I should have been more clear.  Andrew M.'s example is refreshing.  Don O. is also another refreshing example.  
I know what I am getting with an "Olmstead UNC", even though it doesn't come slabbed.  For me, I only really buy notes that are Journey or sometimes Bird series, and that is what my expereince has been so far.

Sorry about my vagueness in my last post.

A pressed Unc. is an uncirculated note left in the cheap holder and stored flat, as in a book. The TPG notes, when stored reasonably properly, will not gain that pressed look, we hope.
Proper storage methods are essential (has been discussed on this site).

CAND now has several members known for their paper ability. Gary Fedora, Tom Merritt, Don Olmstead, Charles Moore, Michael Findlay, Andy McKaig are some of them.

Rick

At this point I am starting to lean A LOT in the direction of having my notes graded by PMG. Recently it seams that everything that is selling is doing so because it was slabbed by third party.

I try to grade and price as accurately as possible but since a lot of my items are high priced I am not moving them as fast as I could. I strongly believe that having them certified would encourage buyers to trust the grades and feel more comfortable.  It is very hard to judge a note through a scan and a computer screen so this should serve as insurance of what you will be getting. Once you receive it, it can be removed from the holder for your closer inspection.

That’s my 2 cents

At this point I am starting to lean A LOT in the direction of having my notes graded by PMG. Recently it seems that everything that is selling is doing so because it was slabbed by third party.

I try to grade and price as accurately as possible but since a lot of my items are high priced I am not moving them as fast as I could. I strongly believe that having them certified would encourage buyers to trust the grades and feel more comfortable.  It is very hard to judge a note through a scan and a computer screen so this should serve as insurance of what you will be getting. Once you receive it, it can be removed from the holder for your closer inspection.

Why not offer your notes on eBay via the traditional auction route with a realistic starting price below or around the book value? In my experience, that's the best way to ACTUALLY SELL notes, assuming that you actually want to sell them! It all depends on what you paid for them, of course.

It seems to me that most potential buyers are very leery of "Buy-It-Now/Best Offer" items that are priced well over catalogue value whether they are third-party graded or not. As long as you have large high-resolution scans and you ADDRESS IN DETAIL the critical issues of washing, pressing, trimming and restoration then your notes will sell and you will generate cash flow for future purchases .... Good luck!

There are loads and loads of high-priced "Buy-It-Now/Best Offer" notes on eBay that have been up there for six months or longer and have remained unsold. It seems logical to conclude that these notes are overpriced, and I don't think third-party grading would help much in these cases.

Thanks Ottawa

I will try that out, auctioning a few off. My margins may be tighter than other delers and I do a lot of research on ebay to have the best buy it now prices and still offer discounts. My problem is most likly that I base my prices on dealers that already have a large clientel such as Troy.

I agree with Ottawa.

Although this isn't going to address your immediate need to sell: nothing better than having good feedback and a reliable reputation.  As Ottawa suggests: if you sell unlike the others (overpriced, buy it now, or submit best offer formats) usually you tend to do well in the long run.  Yes there may be some sold around what you paid or not as high as you want (or expect) but in the long run nothing works better than good feedback and a solid reputation.

My 2 cents....

As I see it, there's a big difference between trying to sell something at "the going rate" and wanting to hold out for "top dollar". I would tend to hold out for top dollar on something that is truly exceptional or irreplaceable, e.g., one of the finest known examples of a particular note or the only known example of a particular note (as long as it's not a total rag). Thus, I wouldn't get excited by a Bank of Commerce $10 1935 note in UNC (replaceable) but a Bank of Commerce $10 1906 note in crisp original EF (essentially irreplaceable) would be an entirely different story.  

When I'm trying to sell something I always remember what a very successful antiquarian book dealer once told me, i.e., "The best book is a sold book" and that goes for paper money and coins too. It all comes down to (1) whether the item is easily replaceable, and (2) whether you view yourself primarily as a dealer/seller or as a collector/buyer. Experienced dealers know that there will always be something interesting around the corner to buy so, generally speaking, they don't get too emotionally attached to their possessions. For dealers/sellers it's important to maintain a steady "cash flow" so that there's always money in the bank when something interesting comes along. On the other hand, dealers/sellers have to maintain a reasonable inventory because "you can't do business out of an empty wagon".

Once I have made the decision to sell an item I no longer worry too much about the final selling price (within reason). I have always been a firm believer of "letting the market decide" and that goes for traditional public auctions with a printed catalogue as well as eBay auctions. In my experience (since 1970) "it all comes out in the wash", i.e., you make unexpected gains when you sell some items but you may lose a bit (occasionally a lot!) on others. However, that's the way it's always been in any market, for example the gold and silver bullion markets and the stock market.

However long you have been in this hobby you will always make errors of judgment. Sometimes you will sell an item too cheaply because you didn't fully appreciate the item's scarcity or desirability (that's why the auction route is often the best) and you might overpay for an item because you didn't realize it had a hidden problem (we all tend to get a little "greedy" at times!)

When buying, it's important to remember that the "bargain" is not always in the price but in the opportunity to be able to buy the item. When I was much younger I missed out on several irreplaceable items because they seemed "too expensive" at the time, most notably a Dominion of Canada $5 1912 McCavour-Saunders Train note priced at $180 (that was in 1978 when that signature variety wasn't even known to exist --- now it's worth $25,000!)  However, these days I never balk at the price (within reason) on something that really interests me and that I'm never likely to see again in my lifetime.

Thanks again Ottawa for the very valuable advice. It seams as I am starting out that I cannot afford to lose too much money by risking notes in auction format. On the other hand I will not get anywhere without a strong clientel.  I am still intrested in getting some of the better notes graded by third party. I would do so to simply to build confidence and reassurance of the note.

Thanks again Ottawa for the very valuable advice. It seems as I am starting out that I cannot afford to lose too much money by risking notes in auction format. On the other hand I will not get anywhere without a strong clientele.  I am still interested in getting some of the better notes graded by third party. I would do so simply to build confidence and reassurance of the note.

I have never ever sent out a coin or note for certification in the last 35 years. I realize that this is probably not considered "normal" behaviour these days but, as far as I'm aware, this has not caused me to suffer in any way.  Perhaps I could have sold some items for a bit more by certifying them, but not necessarily. When I have grown tired of an item, or if I need some money for another purchase, then I sell off the item on eBay using the traditional auction format ---- it's fast and reliable in my experience. The idea of putting material into an eBay Store at an optimistically high price and leaving it there unsold for 6 to 12 months does not personally appeal to me. I often wonder how collectors would feel if they were subscribing to a mail-order dealer's monthly list and they saw the same items on offer month after month after month? It seems to me that the most successful retail dealers (both mail order dealers and bourse dealers) are those who sell their material at reasonable and attractive prices and who replenish their stock on a regular basis. This is the best way to keep customers happy, and a happy customer will always come back to you rather than search for greener pastures.

Thanks again Ottawa for the very valuable advice. It seems as I am starting out that I cannot afford to lose too much money by risking notes in auction format. On the other hand I will not get anywhere without a strong clientele.  I am still interested in getting some of the better notes graded by third party. I would do so simply to build confidence and reassurance of the note.

It seems to me that the most successful retail dealers (both mail order dealers and bourse dealers) are those who sell their material at reasonable and attractive prices and who replenish their stock on a regular basis. This is the best way to keep customers happy, and a happy customer will always come back to you rather than search for greener pastures.

 

Perfectly said Ottawa. This formula does not only apply to dealers of numismatic products but sellers of all products and services.

I'm tired of dealers trying to hit a home run with every sale.

SHOW her the difference between an Original Unc and a pressed Unc

pressed Unc?  What's that?  Who would press an Unc note?

Anyhow, I think we're doing what BWJm said not to do, i.e. discuss seller's reputations.

Perhaps you should visit Dons table(s) at the next opportunity you have,he'll explain it to you .Quite a bit more elequently than i would.

Just for the record,I was not commenting on anyones reputation,rather,I was expressing an opinion.

Numerous posts have referenced profit motives of TPG,or greed for the sake of greed.I think different view points are healthy and add to the discussion.
Having not been a fan of TPG notes I'm slowly coming around to accept what the marketplace seems to be adopting.I've even purchased my first TPG note! Well over book I might add.

It's funny how we/someone can become so caught up in their self-importance that they suddenly believe they know how the paper money world should operate. Apparently poor collectors—if they really took Economics 101—did in fact see the textbook only from "across the room" and therefore have not heard of the "free market" concept. They evidently do not realize that whatever the market is willing to pay IS the correct price at that moment.

Was there any "relation" a few years back between a Cabbage Patch doll selling for hundreds of dollars and its worth,at least according to true cabbage patch collectors,the true cost of, perhaps, ten bucks? Did any of us write any posts back then decrying the unnaturally high prices of the toy industry?

Tell us,we that decry market forces: do you lose sleep worrying that an iPod selling for three hundred dollars is probably being produced in China for twenty? That's a markup of 1500%, fellas! Maybe we'd better place a call and lodge a complaint with the FTC!

Naturally, I could spend hours listing items that sell for prices out of all proportion—ooops! Many think a 10%, 50%, 100%, 200% ect. markup is... well, just too darned high. Never mind that for many years prior, lots of collectors were selling their paper at a LOSS—and a lot of them are no longer around to lament it.

These continual rants about pricing,brought up several different ways,over several months, may be one of the most useless—and patently obvious—statements I've heard in this paper bull market to date. Does it not go without saying that nothing can continue "forever"? Many of you admit that paper money prices can conceivably rise for years to come. So warning us that they cannot do so "forever" seems disingenuous. The fact that collectable paper money will likely rise for several more years is EXACTLY why we're invested in it,people! That's what we're all we're banking on: several more years. None of us supposes that paper money will rise indefinitely. We're merely heeding the clarion call of a powerful and important economic CYCLE. Are you not doing the same? C'mon now,be honest with yourself.

Perhaps it will trade lower in the days and weeks to come. But in the months and years ahead, it will in all likelihood trade many hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars higher,depending on quality of said note,rarity,grade,ect.

Of course you may disagree with my observations,that's what makes a discussion interesting.
In example,recently I let go of a $*VV '54 $1.00 at $13,500.Would TPG have increased the price? I highly doubt it,hard to improve on the unimproveable.Yet,it was well over book.I'd buy one in Original Unc,nicely centered right here and now for $10-$11,000. Would the seller be price gouging me? Not as far as I'm concerned.

I use the Charlton as a reference when it comes to pricing,but I do not make final buying decisions based onn a book that is 4-5 months behind the market at the point of sale.TPG pricing seems to command more,who am I to argue with the market.

An old proverb goes "It's hard to kick against the pricks"

I think you're dead wrong.  Many people treat this as a hobby, not a portfolio.  You're out of touch with the average collector, my friend.

I know of many collectors that treat their notes as a portfolio. I also believe that many of the new collectors joining the hobby have the same taught in mind. When your buying notes ranging in the thousands of dollars you do not want to see it go down in value. Sure there is a risk but the recent gains are extremely favorable compared to the risks involved.

Some of my RRSP's have averaged out about 10-15% yearly, but many of my notes have double or tripled in price since 2003. This means that currently my notes are the more favorable investment. Sure it's still considered as a hobby but I would not invest nearly as much if it was a sinking investment. With third party grading on the rise and many of the US getting interested in Canadian banknotes the hobby may become more of a fund