Buyer Beware

News: Registration is free here at the CPMF!

I found a note that was worth an instant buy if the grade were truly GEM UNC65.
RARE !! 1927 RBC $50 note PCGS 65 PPQ

But with a little help from a CPMF member,we found that this note is listed in the CPMS Note Register as AU, last seen in the 1996 Charlton Catalogue.
Looks like the list contains 43 notes.
Catalogue # is 630-14-16
Catalogues at $2,750 in AU. No price listed for UNC.This note is also the finest recorded.
There are no known UNCs.

So how did the grading company give it a Gem 65? Do they perform even the slightest due diligence on a note before slabbing?
Buy It Now price $14,500 USD (if you're still interested)

{http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/6360/b29heoqgwk28kgrhqiokm4e.jpg:http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/6360/b29heoqgwk28kgrhqiokm4e.th.jpg}

[edit]Removed eBay item #, added image. --BWJM[/edit]

[edit]Post removed because purple monkey dishwasher - mmars[/edit]

The scan does not afford us the luxury of an accurate grade,even a good guess in my opinion.

But taking a worthless slab,...er...stab at it,VG to AU!

If it is who I think it is they are based on BC. I've dealt with them before and they seem on the up and up. Perhaps its consigned or they bought it off someone, without doing their research.

The registry grade isn't official - read the introduction!
But there are two other notes in consecutive order, with this one skipping only one sheet. Often these runs (though not always) are in pretty much the same grade.  The other two are recorded as EF-AU and EF.

Registry means nothing. I had a 1912 $5 note that was graded by the BCS as VF-20. It was better than 90% of the EFs out there. On eBay it went for a little over the book price for EF.

Then again, I personally don't believe in "gem unc". The note is either Unc or it's not. If it's uncirculated but flawed/mis-handled, then too bad. I've seen too many dealers pass EF+ notes for UNC and AU notes for C.Unc's to believe in multiple levels of "unc".

 

Then again, I personally don't believe in "gem unc". The note is either Unc or it's not. If it's uncirculated but flawed/mis-handled, then too bad. I've seen too many dealers pass EF+ notes for UNC and AU notes for C.Unc's to believe in multiple levels of "unc".

As a collector of Unc+ notes only i can assure you that to me the variations of an Unc go much beyond even the 3 grades of Unc in the catalogue.

On a side note it's pretty disappointing as a collector of high grade scarce notes to see them sent down south to receive American grades and sold at Canadian book prices.


MG

"Registry means nothing."


Art: do not confuse the CPMS register with TPG notes.
They are not the same.
The CPMS register is a most valuable resource.
TPG grading is what it is...

The grades in the rare note registers tend to be on the conservative side, but the people who gather the information for these registers have many years of grading experience, much more than the many TPGs that have cropped up in the past 5 years.  These people know the differences between AU and Unc. So I tend to take the grades in the registers at face value with the knowledge that someone else's assessment for the same note may be a half grade different and still be correct.  When a note comes up for sale and it is described as 2-3 grades higher than the recorded value in the register, that is when the registers really become valuable.  Take the example of a major chartered note that came up for sale at a MAJOR auction 2 years ago.  The note was a Northern Crown Bank 1914 $10 note described by the auctioneer as Uncirculated.  A check of the rare note register showed that the same note was listed in another sale 10 years earlier as a damaged VF.  A black and white picture of the note in the earlier sale showed that the note was indeed damaged along the right edge which has since been restored.  So the registers have a historical provenance.  But everyone is free to believe whatever they want.

Then again, I personally don't believe in "gem unc".

I do.  The Charlton catalogue's grading system makes sense.  It's other people's interpretations of it that make me cringe.  It's good to be aware of the systems that exist.

The Charlton describes C.UNC as one demerit point and UNC as up to 3 demerit points. That bull. Last time a dealer tried to sell a note as UNC it had "demerits" such as a finger print stain, a middle vertical fold and a counting crease. A note that is G.UNC could be one that is perfectly centered and with heavy ink for instance. Not all notes are printed G.UNC's in my opinion. If you have an uncirculated note that is not perfectly centered, then it loses a point, if the ink is not heavy then it drops to UNC-60. There should be no "Unc" grade to a note with some vertical fold, counting crease or anything on the note that takes away from its original state from the mint.

Some dealers have their own grading criteria. If you don't like them, don't buy the note. Stick to Charlton/CPMS standards and you will do well. Otherwise, whatever. Don't complain here if you buy notes you don't like or if dealers have different standards. Why do you say a commonly accepted standard is bull? No where does the Charlton catalogue set of grading criteria say an Unc. not can have a centre fold.

I'm not complainning. I'm just saying, 5 years ago, we did not have dfferent types of Unc's. An Unc note was  flawless note, period. In fact, I remember a time when there was no AU either. Just EF and UNC.

Some dealers have their own grading criteria. If you don't like them, don't buy the note.

I totally agree...
I think this is the bottom line...if you like the note and you feel the price is fair ...buy it.
If you don't think the note is what they say..point out the issues and bargain to get a price your happy with....If that doesn't work...walk away.... and look elsewhere .
Why buy something and complain about it after the fact....no one will care or listen..

On another point...the last time I was at a show I was about to purchase a note that the dealer claimed was an UNC and I know he has always been extremely good with his grading...after examining the note I noticed a few issues and pointed them out....he immediately was pissed off saying that some prick that had seen the note earlier removed it from the sleeve and dropped it to the floor then picked it up and reinserted it into the holder....not thinking anything of it assumed it was fine.....obviously not ...a dirt mark or smudge from the floor and a small crease....anyways I didn't buy it and the dealer changed the grade to AU....interesting to know, if I see the note at another show will it still be marked as an AU with the same dealer........this is the true test of what a dealer is really like ...in my opinion.

As a collector of paper money you need to learn how to grade a note for yourself and no body else. It is not wrong to express you opinion on the condition of a note, but if you are going to complain about someone’s grading, start by pointing the fingerer at yourself for not doing a good job at grading and buying an over-graded note. It is not the grading standard set by the CPMS that varies, it is people that waiver in their grading.

Registries are good but are not iron clad. I have seen examples of notes being graded and recorded in registries’ by contributors who have not seen the note. We can all do our part here by informing the record keepers when a discrepancy is found when a note is viewed.

As stated previously, a grade is subjective to one person’s opinion. It does not matter what the seller says the grade is, it matters what you decide it is.

Lets look on the bright side, in a little over a years time we will have polymer notes, and I am sure the grading standards may need to be revised to accommodate this new series.

polymer notes

What is that?