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Topic: A double denomination note!!!!!  (Read 10074 times)
CA_Banknotes
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« on: May 29, 2005, 11:05:03 pm »

It may be a spectacular error, but one thing that's catching me is, how did the $5 lithograph AND intaglio printing get on?













[Edited. See my comments below. --BWJM]
« Last Edit: May 30, 2005, 02:12:04 am by BWJM »
Marc
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« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2005, 12:19:50 am »

That is spectacular.  Even though it is eBay, perhaps this should be moved to the error notes section?

Marc :)
d_polo
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« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2005, 01:07:17 am »

What I think is, it's a fake error. Somebody just took a real $20 note, scanned a $5 note, then used a computer to overprint the $5 note on top or the real $20 note. I highly doubt CBNC or BABN would get the two denominations mixed up during printing. Just my opinion.
sudzee
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« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2005, 01:44:48 am »

The last BABN five printed was AOF dated 2001 and it had K-D signatures. If this is an actual error we should expect to see BABN  Jenkins-Dodge fives in the near future.
BWJM
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« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2005, 02:13:55 am »

I've edited the initial post to remove the link to the eBay auction as a preventative measure because I can see this very easily slipping to a discussion of whether or not it is an authentic error, how it was done, and perhaps by whom.  I have included all images from the eBay listing as fodder for a lively discussion here.

I'm also moving the thread to the Errors forum.

BWJM
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CA_Banknotes
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« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2005, 02:25:27 am »

Now I can vent......

I think it's fake. The lithograph and the intaglio being on at the same tiem is suspicious enough. If it was just the intaglio, I may believe it.

Also, at the bottom, how come the design of the $5 stops there, and there's an obivous photocopy line? Wouldn't the design just continue on?
« Last Edit: May 30, 2005, 02:26:34 am by can-banknotes »
BWJM
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« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2005, 02:44:42 am »

Now then, since that's taken care of, let's take a couple swings at it and see if we can't come up with some ideas, eh? ;D

Take a close look at the scan of the big 20 and 5 counters.  The 20 is nice and crisp, but the 5 shows ragged edges.  Also, notice a couple of the blue fibres along the right edge of that scan.  Isn't that odd, they look ragged too! :o  In fact, almost all of the intaglio from the 5 image looks ragged too, even on other scans.  It doesn't really look like intaglio printing.

Now go over to the scan of the portraits.  Look at the holographic strip.  Seems odd that the strip and a margin on either side of it is not covered at all by any part of the 5 image.  It's entirely untouched!  I just tried a little experiment.  I took the fat end of a sharpie and drew a streak across the holographic strip on a $20 from my wallet, then promptly attempted to rub it off with a Kleenex.  The strip itself and a margin on either side came out clean, but the marker outside the margin held fast.  INTERESTING :-X

I'm going with d_polo here.

BWJM
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coinsplus
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« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2005, 02:46:28 am »

I also agree with the other comments.   It's highly improbable.  :P

  Smile from your heart.  ;D
Marc
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« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2005, 12:15:01 pm »

Yeah, after a close look it does seem like bogus to me.

Marc :)
coinsplus
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« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2005, 02:09:46 am »

Just to follow-up on this auction...

It ended at $1,825 U.S. or $2,288 Canadian.   Pretty good coin for the seller.  Not bad for a $20 note.  That is a whopping 11,440% return.

Now, I just wish that I could do better in the stock market.  Darn!  >:(

  Smile from your heart.  ;D
CA_Banknotes
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« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2005, 12:10:18 am »

I hate to tell everyone here......

Out of my own dishonesty, I tried to make one of these notes last night.

It worked. I was a bit off, but again, the design did not appear over the holographic strip.

I feel so sorry for whoever bought the note.
BWJM
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« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2005, 02:02:53 am »

Quote
I hate to tell everyone here......

Out of my own dishonesty, I tried to make one of these notes last night.

It worked. I was a bit off, but again, the design did not appear over the holographic strip.

I feel so sorry for whoever bought the note.
HA! I KNEW it was almost for sure a fake! Those scans are just screaming inkjet forgery. It should be fun when you attempt to spend that note, can-banknotes. ;)

BWJM
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CA_Banknotes
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« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2005, 02:25:29 am »

LOL, BWJM.........

I'm going to show it off to a few people at work first.......

Then I'm going to turn it into the bank. I don't want anyone else, when they get this note to set up another auction like this again.

I did it with a UNC note too, and I have the shoulder notes as well. Everyone here can make up a story about getting it from a ATM brand new, can't they? ;)

And you did make a good point. We haven't seen BABN $5s, yet this was printed on a BABN $20. Raises some alarms, eh?

Mine is more believable. There is no minor line at the bottom, and it was printed on a CBN $20.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2005, 02:28:24 am by can-banknotes »
Marc
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« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2005, 02:53:16 am »

The sad part in all this is that someone just lost a LOT of money. :(

Marc :)
BWJM
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« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2005, 04:08:45 am »

I hope that when the buyer receives the note, they discover just how fake it is, and they contact the police with allegations of fraud and forgery.

Be glad that you all are a part of this forum where we can put our collective heads together and be educated collectors. Yet another useful tidbit of knowledge is how to spot a forgery when you see one.

BWJM
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Skylark
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« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2005, 04:37:26 am »

too bad its a real 20 and theres nothing illegal about printing on money


I collect banknotes depicting Tallships. And to a lesser degree, all watercrafts.
Bitburger
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« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2005, 05:10:23 am »

I hope the buyer live in the province of Quebec because we have the consumer office which is a "sort" of board that can suit people or company that try to fraud consumers. According to the consumer office law, this guy would be probably found guilty in Quebec for selling false currencies on internet.  :o


emsteph
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« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2005, 11:29:22 am »

Quote
Then I'm going to turn it into the bank. I don't want anyone else, when they get this note to set up another auction like this again.

I suggest that you keep the note, print off the auction and frame both as a neat conversation piece...
venga50
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« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2005, 02:31:51 pm »

It might be fun to keep tabs on the auction and check to see what type of feedback this poor, unfortunate buyer will leave for the seller... ;)

If a positive feedback is left, I'm afraid I may die laughing!

Hudson A B
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« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2005, 01:31:08 am »

Has anyone contacted the buyer themselves to let them know about the potential fraudulent situation?

CPMS Lifetime Member #1502.
copperpete
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« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2005, 02:18:29 am »

About this bogus note, someone had said that the fake was printed on an authentic note, so it's not illegal to print on money.  

I can tell to all of you that it's FALSE.  In our local coin club, we recently had a presentation by two RCMP members about bogus and counterfeited notes.  Very interesting.  I asked them what about an altered note?  A note which had an treatment to remove any part of the design?  or a note with any writing on it?    They told me that ANY voluntarly altered note is illegal.  And that's apply to any design stamped, written, or printed by any means on it.  

So the 5$ on 20$ fall in the category of altered notes (if proven so).  You can conclude by yourself...

CA_Banknotes
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« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2005, 02:27:22 am »

Eeek.

I better just keep the note. It's only $20 and a nice conservation piece I guess. Hey! At least it didn't cost me $2,000! :D
copperpete
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« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2005, 02:38:08 am »

I agree with you.  Just hold on and enjoy the comment of your friends  ;) ;) ;)

As usual, there is a difference between theory and the real life.  Even if it's illegal to alter the money we have (coins or notes),  we rarely see any accusation because the majority of these alterations are minor or simply nobody cares about (without mention to find who made the alteration).  These cases are funny and hurts noboby.

IMHO it's only when someone tries to make a buck with an altered note than it becomes a concern...

BWJM
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« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2005, 02:49:31 am »

A reminder to people who engage in transactions over the WWW that in the event of some sort of economic crime (ie: fraud), a website called Reporting Economic Crime On-Line has been established through law enforcement agencies such as the RCMP, OPP and FBI. You can visit this site at http://www.recol.ca. You do not need to be directly involved in a transaction to make a report.

BWJM
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venga50
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« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2005, 09:51:34 pm »

Well, positive feedback WAS left for this item.  I quote: "Thanks for the HOLY GRAIL of error notes. Great communication, great service!!!!"

Could this error be for real?  ???  :-/  ???

admin
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« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2005, 09:59:19 pm »

Anything is possible and I'm sure the new owner will have it checked out.

BTW, very funny by-line. Thanks.  ;D
JB-2007
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« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2005, 12:47:22 am »

i just dont see how this can be a real error. Too denomination printed on each other??? This is unheard of... Probably has never happened. Im almost sure that the one who bought this note will be in for a very unpleasant surpise when he/she gets it checked out. I guess the most important lesson we learn from such auctions like this one is always beware when buying errors!!!  
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« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2005, 01:01:04 am »

Well, although the Charlton guide use to say that no double denomination is been found, I do not believe that it says it anymore. Seems to me one came to light about 2 years ago, but Tom might have more details.

Technically, this is possible, because printers use a number of sheets various parts of the printing process for "setup sheets". It is conceiveable that a setup sheet from a $5 press run ended up being used as a sheet up sheet for a $10 (you know, conserve the paper) and then managed to slip through detection. Now, I'm not saying it a likely possibility as I would have thought it would be easy to detect, but again, it is possible. It could also be a "back door job" where somebody in the plant "assisted" it's introduction to the market.

As well, it wouldn't be hard to just run a note through an inkjet printer either...

So, what I'm saying is that it is "possible", just very unlikely. I'd kill to put my grubby little hands on it (and my loop), but Tom would be better.
Tom
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« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2005, 02:14:52 am »

That about wraps up my thought's.  There is a double denomination note with I have authenicated.  Here is the examle


{http://www.rarenotes.net/20on100.jpg}

I was a little suspicious when the first one was found a few years ago.  Then another one surfaced and the serial numbers indicate they were from the same sheet.  

I get a bad feeling about this $5\20 error.  The signatures are not very sharp along with other elements of design.  I would like to see if the ink will run if dampend,  check out for embossing etc.  Wich only can be done if I have it in my hands.  
It seemed that the note from above was not legit, but turned out to be, so it could be with this $5\20 note.  I still have a bad feeling about it.

Just my opinion.

Tom
Channaford
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« Reply #29 on: June 09, 2005, 04:22:49 pm »

Then how come the $20/$100 note doesn't have any colour?  It looks like a B&W photocopy to me...

- Cathy
Skylark
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« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2005, 06:45:57 pm »

I recall its because to person that copyed it didnt have a colour copyer.

I collect banknotes depicting Tallships. And to a lesser degree, all watercrafts.
copperpete
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« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2005, 02:58:32 am »

About the 5$/20$ error, I don't believe that is an authentic one.  The reason?  This note was supposedly found in an ATM, with others 20$ notes.  To have this note overprinted with a 5$ design (with both litho and engraved ones), you MUST have a complete sheet of printed 20$ notes slipped through the printing stages of 5$ notes, without any notice?? ???
AND this overprinted sheet came back in the stack of sheets of 20$ and put on numbering printer, cutting and wrapping, to finally fall in an ATM, still with nobody have noted absolutely nothing???  The only possibility is a "back door job".  And the employee risked (or lost) his/her job...

What about the reverse?  to begin with the printing of 5$ notes?  Very improbable too:  you must have fed the printing machine set for 5$ with a sheet of paper (with the holographic stip, the water mark and the security tread on it) very characteristics of the 20$ notes, still without any notice?  the litho and the engraved plates prints put on it (on only one side) the design of a 5$ note, and this sheet came back in the normal printing run of 20$...still with anybody finding anything wrong???

You must have very good arguments to convince me that it's NOT a forgery...:-/

 

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