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Topic: Proposed New System for Insert Notes  (Read 8740 times)
standeasy
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« on: January 23, 2007, 04:31:37 pm »

How do we (I) keep up with what seems to be a never ending flow of new and claimed new insert notes.  I,m going batty trying to do so.  I go thru our favorite auction site.  I receive regular listings from a couple of excellent dealers  but every time I turn around there are a few more  notes for me to add to my list of confirmed or possible inserts. Do we have a segment on the CPMF that covers all my puzzlement.

[edit]Thread renamed by request. --BWJM[/edit]
« Last Edit: February 03, 2007, 12:42:23 am by BWJM »
X-Savior
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« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2007, 05:16:18 pm »

Hi There,

Gilles Pomerleau is the foremost expert in Journey Series Inserts in Canada. Everyone reports their findings to him and then that is how ranges are determined. After a certian range has been confirmed by SEVERAL reliable sources and been reviewed by a Senior member of the Canadian Paper Money Society it is then published on the GP List. This list is sent out to Subscribers, and then once the information is then published Brent puts the information in the High/Low Lists for reference by all members. Anything ont he GP List is expected to be published in the next Charlton Edition.

With CBN Printing bank notes they were riddled with errors so there ended up being a large selection of Inserts. The Journey $5 Notes is a PERFECT example.

I agree it is difficult to keep up with by with BABN now printing the 2006 $5 Notes we have seen a large decrease in new ranges being found.

You can post in the Replacements section if you are looking for specific information.  ;)

Sorry Ladies...I am now a Married Man!!!
only4teeth
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« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2007, 05:51:36 pm »

How do you subsribe to the list?
Dr.Bill
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« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2007, 06:08:59 pm »

All the updated confirmed inserts are on the NEW HIGH/LOW LISTS. Or you can go to wiki.bwjm.ca
It' s usually updated every 2 months.  
moneycow
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« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2007, 07:34:33 pm »

Quote
Gilles Pomerleau is the foremost expert in Journey Series Inserts in Canada. Everyone reports their findings to him and then that is how ranges are determined.

Really? Everyone?  I haven't...and wouldn't even know how to reach him.

moneycow
Hudson A B
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« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2007, 10:20:35 pm »

I am on the phone with him (GP) fairly often- if you are looking to get his newsletter, let me know by PM, and I will speak with him directly.  
« Last Edit: January 23, 2007, 10:24:28 pm by hudsonab »

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X-Savior
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« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2007, 10:39:14 pm »

Another Option that is the best option for submitting information is to send it to Sudzee.

He complies the information and sends it to Gilles. Many people report to him.

It is VERY important that Brick Searchers get their information to Gilles one way or another as there may be other people who have also found a certian insert but are waiting for more to find it before it becomes official. You might be the missing link....

I would like to Commend and give a big pat on the back to all the Searchers out there. The information you find is VERY Critical and keep up the good work. Please get your information submitted!  ;)




Sorry Ladies...I am now a Married Man!!!
Don_D
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« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2007, 12:56:20 am »

Indeed, GP has a well of information which he shares happily with whoever calls him.  The only problem is these data are not available on internet like this forum and easily accessible.  wouldn't it be better if some one could persuade him to allow one or some moderators to create and maintain a complete database of the unscheduled inserts in the forum, containing all details like where the inserts come from, replacing what missing notes ?  
X-Savior
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« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2007, 01:07:06 am »

Indeed it would be a really interesting idea. I am not sure if anyone is up to the task.....

I would vote Oli for the position as he has a good handle on Inserts as well...

I think Brent does a fine job with the current High/Low Lists.

It should be clear that the 2 lists will need to be COMPLETELY separate... This would be CRITICAL.   :-X

Sorry Ladies...I am now a Married Man!!!
Hudson A B
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« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2007, 02:52:45 am »

I would like to add something, so here it is.

I volunteer myself for a position like that. In fact, I already do what is described to some degree. Any person here who has ever witnessed another new find or non-find by someone else also is taking part in the collaboration. It takes alot of effort, from alot of people.

For those of you who know about the research I do and what I provide (mostly tentative inserts), my emails to you are exactly what x-savior describes, although probably not complete since there are many more searchers.  That is, you get a list of the new findings, with a guarantee of refund if they do not end up being confirmed.  All with the exception of one so far have materialized as confirmed findings enough so that they could be put in the letter/catalogue. Those notes were not sold.

I disagree with having the lists separate with a  :-X attatched to it, which perhaps implys a deliberate communication blockage?  Only in discussing finds with one another can we discover the patterns and oddities that we need to in order to maintain the integrity and accuracy of the lists.  One perfect example is the issue of BABN notes being found in sheets as well as singles.  If both parties discovered one type of insert (sheet vs single), and did not discuss how and where they were found, then it is possible that opposing conclusions could be the result. Thus, information sharing is key; we are working all for ONE cause, I would like to stress.  The described situation is a slim possibility, but a possibility nonetheless.

I know that managing a list like this would only be an extension of what most of us on the forum already know.  We have posts and posts about what the insert ranges will be on the next list, what someone's finds were in a new brick.  The information is already there, here on this site; agreed though, there are many who do not post, and many finds that do not go into as much detail as they possibly could.  

To close, I volunteer myself for this "position".  Any objections?

X-savior, could you please elaborate on why they must be completely separate?

Add modified message body:
The information of potential inserts should not be published in a public list.
Why? When the information is available to just anyone, then that leaves an opportunity for "just anyone" to fabricate their own brick and "invent" their own inserts (in hopes of having their stack of notes being recognized as inserts, despite being fraudulent).
The fact is, when we all colaborate our insert finds, AND non-insert finds, the real inserts get confirmed, but any untrue inserts can be easliy disroven with the right information.  You could hand me one $20, and I can place with certainty the position in the ream of 360,000 or 270,000 notes that it is a part of.  This type of information is what disproves erroneus insert claims, or even validifies some unique findings.  I am happy to report that there have not been any claims of regular notes being inserts for a very long time.  The ones that were, were disproven through the application of well researched knowledge about the printing process.  The bottom line, this is somewhat sensitive information, and for the best interest of hobby, it is best kept rather tight, until absolute confirmation.  In saying that, that does not stop anyone from posting their finds here on the forum of course.  
Why else would Gilles NOT include this information in his lists... he does have the infrmation to compile a "potential" list already.  The reason: so that people are not jumping to conclusions on insert notes before there has been confirmation as per protocol.

Instead of having to backpedal and say "Sorry, there were not enough confirmed findings of this note, so I am striking it off the list" (and risk dissappointing a number of people waiting in high anticipation that their notes were more valuable), it could all be avoided if the ONLY inserts published as inserts were the ones that were officially confirmed, end of story.  Seems to make alot of sense.  

Thus, to pair up with my voluntary statement,
"For the greatest interest in the Canadian Paper Money hobby, I will only publicly publish information that has been properly confirmed already, and which is scheduled to be on the next mailout list."


In theory, the list that I compile would end up being exactly like GP's at the end of each quarter, when his mailout actually comes.  But in the months prior, it would be nice to get the heads up of newly confirmed ranges (which is kind of already happening).
« Last Edit: January 24, 2007, 03:37:28 am by hudsonab »

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« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2007, 04:28:16 am »

The Reason I say keep them separate is that people need to know the difference between ACTUAL Inserts and PROPOSED Inserts. That is why Brent has stated that he will only list CONFIRMED Inserts from the GP List. I don't understand where the concept of Communication Blockage has come into question....   :-/

Quote
Something new is being done with insert notes since we have moved the lists from the forums. Now, we do not track insert notes specifically per se, but we do list confirmed and suspected insert ranges. Confirmed insert ranges are those which appear either in the most recent edition of the Charlton Standard Catalogue of Canadian Government Paper Money, or in the lists published by Gilles Pomerleau. This information is reproduced with permission. Suspected insert ranges are those for which verbal confirmation from Gilles has been obtained, but they have not yet been published on paper.

We need a Place for people to go where there will be RELIABLE information on CONFIRMED Inserts and then a separate place to see what the latest finds are and SUSPECTED Insert Ranges (From Forum Members). So then anyone can take the information with a grain of salt, KNOWING ALL THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IS NOT CONFIRMED. Then once confirmed by Gilles on the GP List the information would then be removed from the Suspected Lists and put into the Current High/Low Lists. Thus 2 Separate Lists are Maintained (Completely Separate).

Then for those who DON'T care about Suspected Ranges will not be bothered by them and STILL have a RELIABLE place to go for information.

I Still agree that the Suspected List is a good idea but it should only contain CURRENT finds. So it will be a constantly evolving list of the latest finds by people.

Another issue I have is that the Suspected Lists should NOT become a method of marketing ones notes. In fact I think the individual who Moderates the list should not even be a Brick Searcher (Actively). It should be an individual who is Familiar with Inserts who can Administer the Lists UNBIASED.

I think many people would agree this is the best way to handle this issue.

Sorry Ladies...I am now a Married Man!!!
standeasy
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« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2007, 07:44:44 pm »

I had never realized what a complex issue this subject could be and I want to thank all of you who read or responded with some very well thought out ideas of what should or could be done. I am not a researcher or a brick researcher but I do find all the information helpful .




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hanmer
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« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2007, 09:54:54 pm »

It would get known inserts faster to market so to speak. I think it would be OK if SUSPECTED inserts were published and noted in bold and underlined as SUSPECTED. I can certainly apprecate the caution of wanting to wait until confirmation. Who decides that an insert is an insert?

 [smiley=beer.gif]

:)
Lamb
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« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2007, 11:35:42 pm »

It is a valid point.  Instead of rejecting out of hand, those notes close to the ranges should be classed as suspected or unconfirmed.  This would encourage some to research to prove or disprove a note as insert.   Already there are reports of notes that are very close to the ranges or between ranges .  Until those notes are identified or proven to be common notes they should remain unconfirmed.
hi, Hudson, I am sure all of us appreciate your efforts.

John
Hudson A B
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« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2007, 11:36:45 pm »

Hi everyone, yes I agree this thread got complicated very quickly.
I will simplify it, and start with delivering in part what is sought out:

Dear fellow collectors (Jan 24, 2007),
Here are some of the new confirmed insert ranges, which have not been published as of yet. They will be on future lists. Some of this information is as new as today, as per direct conversation with GP himself.
a) EZL 8.8 and area -- this is a ream that is 360,000 notes, likely to be 8640000 - 9000000.  These inserts ARE CONFIRMED according to direct phone conversation with GP.
b) EZR 9.72 - 9.99.  These are inserts, skip numbered by 6000, making them a ream of 270,000.  THESE ARE CONFIRMED according to direct phone conversation with GP.
c) AOH 9.45 which falls outside of the most recently published range: THIS IS ALSO CONFIRMED to now be in the range, according to direct phone conversation with GP.  Reams of BABN $5s are of 40,000 notes, so adjust the existing range downwards by 40,000.

There is another high range of inserts I found that has not officially been confirmed by enough findings.  It is $20s by CBN. PM if you would like to know.

To emphasize a few major points of concern with x-saviors post:
Quote
The Reason I say keep them separate is that people need to know the difference between ACTUAL Inserts and PROPOSED Inserts.
This (actual vs proposed) is already clear when people sell new inserts that have been found, but before the newest list is out and the information is disclosed publicly to everyone.   You have sold inserts as inserts before they became published, or even confirmed  (Specifically HOW 9.84).  Thank goodness that they were eventually confirmed.
Quote
That is why Brent has stated that he will only list CONFIRMED Inserts from the GP List. I don't understand where the concept of Communication Blockage has come into question....   :-/
The smiley:  :-X appears to be amouth with a zipper over its lips.  I don't know how else to read that, other than silence of some sort.

Quote
Something new is being done with insert notes since we have moved the lists from the forums. Now, we do not track insert notes specifically per se, but we do list confirmed and suspected insert ranges.
You cannot have one without the other.  Confirmed ranges are listed based on individual tracking, and suspected ranges are listed by members the moment a new post comes up about a new possible range.

Quote
Confirmed insert ranges are those which appear either in the most recent edition of the Charlton Standard Catalogue of Canadian Government Paper Money, or in the lists published by Gilles Pomerleau. This information is reproduced with permission. Suspected insert ranges are those for which verbal confirmation from Gilles has been obtained, but they have not yet been published on paper.
Sorry to say, but the bolded part of your statement is incorrect.  Suspected ranges are those that have not been confirmed, but are suspected to be inserts.  Gilles obviously cannot put out a list everyday by mail, so in the meantime, other ranges get confirmed.  He has information coming to him daily. I want to make sure everyone is clear on that.
The momemt Gilles confirms an insert range verbally, that insert range is no longer suspect.  Despite that it might not be published for three months less a day, the insert range is to be deemed CONFIRMED, and will be appearing on his next list, thus showing up on wiki within hours, and then the Catalogue.  

Quote
We need a Place for people to go where there will be RELIABLE information on CONFIRMED Inserts and then a separate place to see what the latest finds are and SUSPECTED Insert Ranges (From Forum Members). So then anyone can take the information with a grain of salt, KNOWING ALL THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IS NOT CONFIRMED. Then once confirmed by Gilles on the GP List the information would then be removed from the Suspected Lists and put into the Current High/Low Lists. Thus 2 Separate Lists are Maintained (Completely Separate).
Suspect or "potential" insert ranges are often posted up on the forum, in the Journey section, and often in the high low threads.  As far as reliable, we can only go off of the integrity of the person posting, plus the fact that fraudulent claims can easily be disproven (ask me if you have questions about that).  That is why there is an absolute necessity for multiple finds from reliable sources.
I am not sure, x-savior, if your objection to my handling it has to do with reliability, which you emphasized two times in capital letters, but it appears as such.
I am not here to win votes, or even get the "last word", but those who know me and what I am truly about (FLAWS and all), know the integrity by which I strive for, especially in regards to the health of this hobby.  But I digress.  I am not here to sell myself, or to hard sell product.

Quote
Another issue I have is that the Suspected Lists should NOT become a method of marketing ones notes.
This confuses me, since I again will point out, you were selling inserts, among other things, before they were confirmed (I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you had a provision about that within the sale).
Quote
I think many people would agree this is the best way to handle this issue.

I wholeheartedly disagree with you x-savior, I have my reasons which I will keep to myself.  The greatest reason however, is that we are all trying to work for one cause here, and sharing is the only way we can accomplish this goal.

Any questions about inserts, or reams, or how ranges are determined, I will be happy to share the knowledge I have gained through my own research and through the many lengthy discussions I have shared with other senior members - on and off the site.

Regards,
Hudson A B
« Last Edit: January 24, 2007, 11:39:10 pm by hudsonab »

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