Bricks. Why Replacement Notes are sometimes not cheap.

News: Welcome to the Canadian Paper Money Forum.

Plus I could have a note with the number
AOB 2308709 and it's valued at $200 but if the number is
AOB 2208709 it's valued at $16. I don't know about that.

This is my problem with the journey replacements.  I don't understand their charm and cost as well.  It's simply a diffused distribution of a prefix, rather than a distinct, short run with its own prefix.

I'll stick to the fancy numbers.

Hi Matt,

I would recommend reading my article I wrote about Journey Series Replacements in the proper section of the forum.

http://www.cdnpapermoney.com/forum/index.php?topic=5160.0

It will answer a lot of questions and help you become much more informed as how how ALL Replacements are used and found. The X notes and * Notes are long gone. We can hope and pray all we want for more but they are the past. We MUST look to the future for Replacements. 

For the record and on the topic:

Roughly since the last sale of CBN to new owners, there have been NO replacements found.  CBN prints the $20s that are EZ_ or ELA and ELB etc...

There is speculation that replacements from CBN are now a thing of the past, based on their absence from any brick searched, from coast to coast, across numberous prefizes already. This is not typical of CBN bricks, but it could be a sign of changes.  There was a point in time where BAI (BABN) was also just simply not issuing replacements, and instead just removing the notes...   bricks did not come from 000-999.  They were generally roughly 1000+ in a row (not jumpy like CBN) but the first and last note would be over 1000 apart because there would be notes just plain missing.

Anyway, when you do a brick, and you find a replacement note, then you may better understand their function (and their scarcity).

When I am going through 80+ bricks with no replacements (and repeating that amount again with nothing), that adds to ALOT of fees. 
The cost of getting the notes must be considered.

It is really exciting to find your first replacement note in a brick (or even a few new bundles of you can manage to get that from your bank - making sure that the "replacement" found is genuine first - perhaps already in a confirmed range).

Anyway, what I am trying to say is that it is exciting and alot of fun, and to be a part of a very large group effort working together in keeping these replacements accurate, it is really an amazing feeling. 

I have found ONE replacement note (AOT) in the last probably 9 weeks or so.

Anyway, what I am trying to say is that it is exciting and alot of fun

Sure, just rub it in Hudson. Really make me more miserable than I already was before I read your post.

I will soon be starting the BFBC (Banned From Bricks Club) 

Squid my friend....

Do not beat yourself up. I was briefly in your position when the new $5's were released. I was in a panic to get my hands on them.

Just start building your house of cards from scratch again. Begin your campaign drive and see how that goes for you.... 

Bricks are a totally roller coaster.... Worse then drugs! 

There is speculation that replacements from CBN are now a thing of the past, based on their absence from any brick searched, from coast to coast, across numerous prefizes already. This is not typical of CBN bricks, but it could be a sign of changes.  There was a point in time where BAI (BABN) was also just simply not issuing replacements, and instead just removing the notes...   bricks did not come from 000-999.  They were generally roughly 1000+ in a row (not jumpy like CBN) but the first and last note would be over 1000 apart because there would be notes just plain missing.

I think the end of brick searcher's designated "insert replacements" would be a good thing.  This would make us focus on what is really rare and hard to find, what is desirable to collect (based on year, signature, prefix) and not just some number.   Once the dust has settled, I think many of the new collectors would re-focus on scarcer notes (errors, asterisk, 37 Osborne, etc).  This would be great for the hobby because it would add to the value of older rare significant notes.   

I am going to respond to this...

This would make us focus on what is really rare and hard to find, what is desirable to collect (based on year, signature, prefix) and not just some number.

1. Rarity: You have no idea how hard it is to find replacements in new bricks these days.  Try going for more than 100 bricks, multiple times, and finding nothing. Then finding two or three in a brick.  Common? Not likely.
2. What is desirable to collect: I don't collect Asterisk notes, or DF's or changeovers, or much 1954 or 1937 stuff.  Why? I have my reasons, one being price, and two being accessability.  Your statement of what is desirable to collect is a statement of personal choice, not of hard fact (your statement can never be validified regardless of collector subject).  I still get offers for me to sell my replacement notes, despite the fact that I have found none.  The anxious emails still roll in.
3. Not some number: Then I guess we need to remove the replacement section from the 1979 series then.  They are numbers that were identified as replacement notes. But just numbers.


What is valuable to you, is valuable to you. What is valuable to me has value to me.  There will be people who value one, the other, both or neither, and it is up to them to decide what to collect.
There has been ALOT of growth in the Canadian Paper hobby recently, and alot of new people start with what they can get easy and maybe in change... the Journey notes in particular.  Perhaps demand for Journey notes (replacements and regular) is strong in general because of the strong growth in the hobby?

I doubt that the vanishing of any segment of the hobby is a good thing.  Nor do I see it happenneing. However, as most collectors do, they expand their hobby beyond their starting point, meaning the more collectors there are (regardless of what they collect) then overall and in general, the better for the hobby in all areas. 

I agree with Hudson.

We must all remember that not everyone collects the same thing...

If we did where would all the fun be? 

I don't think anyone... Out side of Arthur (  ) can afford EVERYTHING so many collectors are forced into selecting an area of collecting and then eventually expanding to other areas of Interest.

What strikes me is that everyone who is a Paper Money Collector has a strong drive to learn more...The endless pursuit of knowledge. On can be exciting and rewarding.

I agree with Hudson.

We must all remember that not everyone collects the same thing...

If we did where would all the fun be? 

I don't think anyone... Out side of Arthur (  ) can afford EVERYTHING so many collectors are forced into selecting an area of collecting and then eventually expanding to other areas of Interest.

What strikes me is that everyone who is a Paper Money Collector has a strong drive to learn more...The endless pursuit of knowledge. On can be exciting and rewarding.

I agree with X,

I haven't found much except from an odd old stock floating around last month, I figure it's time to work on my other aspects of my collection, check dis album out.

http://picasaweb.google.com/twoparroteyes/BirdsNoteCollection

Dei Gratia mon,
PD

Huds... what I wrote was just my opinion.. That's what the forum is all about.. Remember?

What is valuable to you, is valuable to you. What is valuable to me has value to me.  There will be people who value one, the other, both or neither, and it is up to them to decide what to collect.

I guess that's what makes this hobby so interesting.  I have tried some brick searching (until my eyes crossed) and cannot fathom how you do it.  I can understand keeping aside rotators, radars or errors more than a note that has a prefix (or same prefix and different number) that doesn't belong...but I guess that's what makes you and I diffeerent.  I also understand that these so-called "inserts" are rare.  However, no matter how you slice it...these notes are just regular notes that were printed up in reams just like all the other notes (including the notes they replaced) but put aside in blocks of 20 or 40K.  The only thing that makes them significant is the fact that you and a handful of brick searchers have found them where they don't belong. 

Once a range has been established (by a number of authorized searchers) than Charlton and their pricing panel put their stamp of approval and try to come up with a fair market value on them. For the life of me, I cannot understand why there's a thread aimed at justifying your costs as brick searchers.  I guess it must come as a result of people wondering why these INSERTS are so expensive.  Now while I understand the system, etc, it nevertheless makes the uninitiated feel as if there's some kind of autocratic elite who determine the value of notes.

The notes (inserts) you so avidly collect are basically incomparable to true asterisk or (X) replacement notes.  Even the 1979 $5 & $20's are desginated by the BOC as emergency replacements.  They were printed up in special batches (with a special serial number asterisk or X designation) and then inserted where notes were damaged.    During the Birds series the BOC did away with producing specially designated replacements due to their expense. So all the notes I'm referring to were even more expensive to produce and then be used to replace defective notes.

However, next thing we know INSERTS were found long after and later deemed as special (once again).  If the collecting community wants to spend high premiums on a serial number range that's their business...but it really has no appeal to me.  I also happen to know many top Canadian collectors who feel the same-- and mainly focus on the notes I mentioned.

Its also true that radars, ladders, and other fancy numbers are just numbers...but it is no wonder that solids and two digits (even rotators) are more desired than a random number.  They're just cool to look at (end of story).  Eye appeal used to be the hallmark for collecting-- but that is being lost on new collectors.

There has been ALOT of growth in the Canadian Paper hobby recently, and alot of new people start with what they can get easy and maybe (sic) find in their change... the Journey notes in particular.  Perhaps demand for Journey notes (replacements and regular) is strong in general because of the strong growth in the hobby?

 

I believe you are correct here.  However, I also tend to believe that a lot of people are spending a lot of money on the journey insert notes that could just as easily be spent on designated (asterisk or X) replacements that I mentioned in my earlier post.  This is driving the BV of such designated inserts up higher than I think they would otherwise be.  Just look at the speculation for the so-called SNR's!  Here are regular notes (not 1 marking or designation separating them from block replacements or regular notes) that were printed only months before going for several hundred dollars!

Let's also recall that there are still many significant Journey notes to collect WHICH DON'T REQUIRE A PANEL OF EXPERTS (ie brick searchers) TO GIVE THEIR STAMP OF APPROVAL.  We all know about the lost prefixes (03 BER/ 04 BEL/BEK/BEP)and the end of the 2001 issue (04 BEK/BET).  Even the 2004 FEV (all inserts) seem more relevant as do the 2002 AOF $5, 2004 HOH $5.00, 2000 FDY, 2001 FEE, and the 2001 Knight Thiessen FDZ.  With all these notes the numbers speak for themselves. 

I doubt that the vanishing of any segment of the hobby is a good thing.  Nor do I see it happenneing.

When Australia went polymer-- it didn't hurt the hobby, but made more Australians interested in paper (and all asterisks shot up in value).  I fail to see your logic...but I do understand that you are passionate about brick searching so this will be my last post on this subject. 

I don't mean to sully your good work, nor to step on your toes!! 

The notes (inserts) you so avidly collect are basically incomparable to true asterisk or (X) replacement notes.

I assume that Hudson has not yet read this post since I know for a fact he does not look for inserts but REPLACEMENTS

FRIEDSQUID

Wtw, I fully respect your opinion on what notes you find value in.
There is one thing that I would like to correct though:
Replacements are note given a stamp of approval by brick searchers.
They are determined by understanding how the notes are printed.  From the replacement notes rescued, a range (40,000 or whatever the ream size may be re: Sheet replacements) is identified.  It is factually identified.  I guess the "approval" you refer to is the confirmation, meaning that the replacements need to be found by a number of reliable sources.  Those all go through one info collaborator - GP.  The approval is not about what numbers the range includes, but moreso whether the range has been verified/confirmed by multiple finds.

I have no problem with your post or your explaination whatsoever.  Just as long as it is clear that value is something that is different to everyone.  When I started into the hobby I thought that there was some place somewhere that determined all these things like range and price, but that is not how it is.  It is the teamwork and collaboration of all brick searchers.  Also, not knowing each others work acts as a good single blind in the process.  Updates are made based on the finds, in a seemingly never ending quest to have as complete info as possible.  And this is what costs the money.

In saying all of this, I can understand where you are coming from and I respect your position on the matter. 

Regards,
Hudson

I do hope that this will be the LAST reference to "Insert" Notes....

All Replacements are "Inserted" so... They are still Replacement notes.... END OF STORY!!!

I have mentioned this in half a dozen different posts....

I rest my case once and for all on this matter of Terminology.   

I'm with some of the guys who mainly collect older notes. My main focus is 1954 and older.

The extent of my journey collecting has been to try and complete a prefix collection. I do that for no premium at my local bank. Everytime I go in I just ask if they have any new notes. If they do I buy a few. Usually with $5's I'll buy 10 notes and with $ 10's I'll buy 5 notes. I know these notes will not really be worth much more than face but It allows me to participate in collecting modern notes also.
I've stumbled on few good notes just doing it this way.

Oli where are you ?

You are the biggest journey collector I know. I know you have been branching out some to other notes. Whats you view on this now.

X-S: I'm sorry I have been away a lot (a bit out of the loop) and didn't know

All Replacements are "Inserted" so... They are still Replacement notes....

I stand corrected. 

Replacements are note given a stamp of approval by brick searchers.
They are determined by understanding how the notes are printed.  From the replacement notes rescued, a range (40,000 or whatever the ream size may be re: Sheet replacements) is identified.  It is factually identified.  I guess the "approval" you refer to is the confirmation, meaning that the replacements need to be found by a number of reliable sources.  Those all go through one info collaborator - GP.  The approval is not about what numbers the range includes, but moreso whether the range has been verified/confirmed by multiple finds.

This is the best concise explanation I've read so far on the topic.  Thanks.  I know that Charlton requires verification so I'm not surprised at this process and the "double-blind" test of reliability.  That's all good.

Although I keep saying this is my last post on the topic...I'm breaking my promise to pontificate on what I believe happens as we continue to search Canadian bank notes.

Taken from a historical perspective and considering strictly BOC issues:

1935 -   Very Few note searchers   = Scarce notes - any note (all conditions) ARE RARE

1937 -   Few note searchers (during the switch over to 1954) mostly nice UNC               Coyne/Towers
                   -  High grade early signatures and change-overs very rare

1954 -  Some brick searchers, mostly bank employees put aside solids or other desirable (errors) and unusual (asterisk) notes, the discovery of test notes, etc.
                   - many rare notes, (all conditions -esp VF and up- collectible)
                   - Most UNC 1967 commemoratives very common as public hordes them

1970's -  More collectors start searching bricks, more bank employees separate rare notes for collectors
                      - collectible "good-overs," SNR replacements, tests are discovered after the fact 
                      -Solid radars become more available.
                      - Replacements are fewer in higher denominations/in UNC

1980's - Brick searching is now common. 
                      - Birds X, RADARS, errors, are ACTIVELY sought out/collected
                       - Previously considered RARE notes are common amongst collectors (BV drops)
                       -BPN variations, as well as plate colour, excite collectors around the $5 and $20
                        (discovered long after they were issued)
                        - BOC auction off specimens, sheets, and other collectibles, hobby grows   

2000    - Brick searching is wide spread.  BOC sell First Impression sets (common)
                       -Notes are annalysed as they're released (CPMF) shares a wealth of info. 
                       -2003 BER and 2004 BEL break the patterns and are scarce
                       -2003 BEK change over is caught but still very hard to find
                       - Replacement $5 (eg AOB) caught but some change-overs hard to find
                       -Radars - extremely common (except in for lost prefixes, change overs, etc)
                       -Replacements - common in UNC condition, some are rare, and few are scarce

2005    -Searching is rampant. TPG impacts hobby
                       -Replacements sell for high premiums (speculation)
                       - Single note replacements are found (speculation is rampant)
                       - hobby continues to grow
                       - Grading becomes more crucial as online auctions become more popular

My point is:
As brick searching has advanced so have a greater number of collectible notes in UNC condition become available.   This means that found notes (in less than UNC) became less collectible to the market at large.  Radars (once considered rare) are every where you turn now.   The obsession over a well graded note hits new highs since so many notes are found in good grades, and due to the cutting cup discovered on the new issues.

Replacements, first believed to be in the 9,000,000 plus range, wildly fluxuate all over in terms of number ranges. Now it becomes a science in collecting them and many collectors have a hard time keeping up.   When I look at my newer collection (some replacements) I have to remind myself that this is not an ordinary note so as not to sell or trade it.

I like to speculate: What would happen if the hobby became more like it used to be (a black box of mystery...and we only discovered what was rare after the fact?)  For instance: What if the BOC issued polymers and there were no more replacements?    I doubt that it would be detrimental to the hobby.  I believe it would make us re-focus on other kinds of notes (just as we have focussed on special numbers such as rotators and repeaters)  Does this make any sense to you (from a historical perspective)?

Update: your post on the difficulty in finding "older 4-cycle notes"  illustrates the point I'm trying to make