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Topic: Attn: All forum Members. This is important.  (Read 7069 times)
freedomschoice
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« on: April 15, 2008, 04:19:38 pm »

Had an interesting conversation today with someone who understands and contributes a lot of information to this hobby. It seems that maybe on the horizon (or the near future) that possibly inserts from the tail end of the bird series (got, gph etc etc) and all the inserts  in the journey series might not be recognized in the Charlton Edition of the Canadian Government Paper Money. Its being considered that only notes with the asterisk and x notes will only be published. If this is the case, I can tell you this will be the death of all new collectors and the death of a few of us older collectors. I personally will leave the hobby the next day. I am a collector of inserts etc etc. Its not  collecting common notes that attract collectors. They are useful in getting peoples attention, but they are not the notes that put the fire in the belly. New collectors collect the inserts from today's notes because they are affordable with a few exceptions. This is what sustains the hobby..... the new collector and keeps older collectors interested. I can only hope that what I have heard is only someones musings and not the direction that will be coming. If you care about this hobby, make it known to the people who count, that this is not acceptable and most certain tingly will be the death bell of the hobby. I left collecting coins and can certainly leave paper money just as easily. So forum members.....speak up.....its your hobby. Whether your for this or against, let your voice be heard.   Freedomschoice

docstrange
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« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2008, 04:29:06 pm »

It will be like countries that have hyper inflation,just print new notes with more zeros making the old ones almost worthless.
Would make all inserts be worth face value :'( :'(
friedsquid
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« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2008, 04:30:14 pm »

Quote
Had an interesting conversation today with someone who understands and contributes a lot of information to this hobby. It seems that maybe on the horizon (or the near future) that possibly inserts from the tail end of the bird series (got, gph etc etc) and all the inserts  in the journey series might not be recognized in the Charlton Edition of the Canadian Government Paper Money.

The statement you make is funny in the sense that I was speaking to someone very recently who also has a very important part in all of this and I was told the complete opposite of what you have heard.  In fact, I was looking forward to this years catalogue to see some of the prices that these new replacements would be starting at.

I guess only time will tell.....and as you, I hope what you have heard is wrong.

FRIEDSQUID



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actuary6
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« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2008, 04:47:50 pm »

Quite frankly, I don't care about insert notes.  I do not collect them and I don't believe they should be worth more than any other ordinary note becasue they are not distinguishable from any other non-insert note.  There is absolutely no difference in the look, feel or paper composition of an insert note over an ordinary note.  The only reason they are valuable, so to speak, is because of some process of how they were inserted into a brick that nobody outside of the printers and the BofC should really care about.  At times, we cannot even say with 100% certainty that an insert note is in fact an insert note.

That's my opinion, sorry if I offended anyone.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2008, 04:49:24 pm by actuary6 »
Bob
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« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2008, 05:37:45 pm »

This is the position as I see it:
Some corrections to certain ranges are needed, that's all.
The sky is not falling.
Relax!

Collecting Canadian since 1955
BWJM
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« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2008, 06:35:14 pm »

This is the position as I see it:
Some corrections to certain ranges are needed, that's all.
The sky is not falling.
Relax!
My interpretation of the above is that we should not be expecting anything drastic above and beyond what has been done for several years now: range corrections.
Punkys Dad
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« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2008, 08:09:21 pm »

It's those darn %@#! aliens from outer space I tell you. They are out to ruin the hobby if not the country's entire economy. This is bad...I didn't realize that they have infiltrated the very offices of Charlton too. Man this runs way too deep.  8)

Teeny guy on my shoulder sez, It's only money mon
Hudson A B
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« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2008, 09:07:06 pm »

I heard that after they remove the inserts, they are going to remove the Bird series completely, because they are kind of boring looking.


Okay- the above staement is false. I heard nothing from anyone (I am in a small town out of the loop), not even from aliens.

But it should be taken with great notice of what Bob and Brent said on this matter.


Hudson

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friedsquid
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« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2008, 09:16:36 pm »

Quote
I heard nothing from anyone (I am in a small town out of the loop), not even from aliens.


So do you teach your students about the aliens and how they are ruining the hobby......



Always looking for #1 serial number notes in any denomination/any series
Oli1001
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« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2008, 09:25:55 pm »

Inserts are replacement notes and for that reason they must remain in the Catalogue.

I understand that some collectors choose not to collect them out of personal preference but I do not see why these current replacements would 'not make' any of the future Charlton Catalogues. Inserts-replacements have even been confirmed by the Bank of Canada (FEP) solidifying the fact that they are indeed have been used as replacement notes. They may not be as identifiable as asterisk notes or Bird's 'X' notes but they still are used to replace damaged notes. With the Bank of Canada confirming certain notes found by collectors as insert-replacements leads to the notion that there is a possibility that the Bank of Canada keep records - records which may be released after the series is over.

I think a part of the problem may stem from a handful of collectors who do not collect inserts. Seeing the ranges modified yearly, sometimes expanding while occasionally shrinking, gets them confused. One must remember that information is ever changing, regardless of the series, resulting in constant changes in the Charlton. Even in the last Catalogue asterisk ranges expanded and information about the FPN and BPN on the 1954 series was added. I guess new and expanding ranges within insert replacements is just part of this dynamic hobby.

Hudson; what will be removed next? I heard the 1935 series might be next....Hudson you can send all of your extra 1935's to me,

rocken
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« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2008, 09:59:21 pm »

I tend to agree with actuary.I believe collecting inserts is a short term fad. I would not be surprised if they were not listed in the next guide.Personally if i find an insert I will try to sell it , but i would never buy one as an investment or to collect.

Ottawa
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« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2008, 07:00:08 am »

Quite frankly, I don't care about insert notes.  I do not collect them and I don't believe they should be worth more than any other ordinary note becasue they are not distinguishable from any other non-insert note.  There is absolutely no difference in the look, feel or paper composition of an insert note over an ordinary note. The only reason they are valuable, so to speak, is because of some process of how they were inserted into a brick that nobody outside of the printers and the BofC should really care about.  At times, we cannot even say with 100% certainty that an insert note is in fact an insert note. That's my opinion, sorry if I offended anyone.

I believe collecting inserts is a short term fad. I would not be surprised if they were not listed in the next guide.Personally if i find an insert I will try to sell it , but i would never buy one as an investment or to collect.

I agree strongly with the comments made by actuary6 and rocken above and I speak from the perspective of someone who has seen many changes in the market and in collecting trends since 1971. The issue is very clear in my opinion. Thus, whereas "traditional" replacement notes (i.e., Asterisk notes and X-suffix notes) were prepared specifically with the intention of performing replacement duty, modern insert notes are not (as far as we know) prepared specifically to perform replacement duty. Modern insert notes are nothing more than regular-issue notes that are taken "off the shelf" when a need for replacement notes arises (the only exception to this would be a distinctive prefix that was employed solely for insert purposes).

Let us look at a hypothetical example. Thus, EZL 8640111 (Cat. $100 in Unc-60) is asserted to be an insert note whereas EZL 7640111 (Cat. $25 in Unc-60) is asserted to be a regular-issue note although the two notes are, practically speaking, 100% indistinguishable from each other. I often wonder whether in 10 or 20 years time anyone will really care that EZL 8640111 was originally issued as an out-of-sequence note in an otherwise in-sequence brick whereas EZL 7640111 was issued as part of an in-sequence brick? Moreover, if new insert ranges continue to be identified at the current rate then in 10 or 20 years time the Charlton catalogue will be as thick as the Krause World Coin Catalogue!

What's really going on here, as I see it, is that regular-issue notes within certain specific serial number ranges (the so-called "insert ranges") are merely getting mixed up with notes from the non-insert ranges just like a deck of cards is shuffled at a casino. At the end of the day, all of the notes remain exactly the same but they just appear in a different order.

I'd be interested in knowing what the current state of thinking is on the above matters. I realize that my line of reasoning may go "against the grain" in some respects but I feel that these questions have to be asked, both for the good of the hobby in general, and particularly for the protection of new collectors who may be induced by high catalogue values to seek out insert notes and to pay large premiums above face value for them.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2008, 06:22:17 pm by Ottawa »

" Buy the very best notes that you can afford and keep them for at least 10 years. " (Richard D. Lockwood, private communication, 1978).
Oli1001
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« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2008, 10:29:22 am »

Insert-replacements are used specifically to replace damaged notes within a sequence of notes. Working on the exact same basis as asterisk notes.


The following is a response from a Bank of Canada representative to a private collector. The information is available on the internet;

"Following our telephone conversation and as discussed, this is the information you requested regarding the GPZ $5's and FDZ $10's that some collectors have noticed amongst bundles of notes received from financial institutions.

It seems highly likely that these notes were used to take the place of notes that did not meet quality standards set by the Bank. In a specific note order, there is normally a series of letters that are set aside by the printer for this purpose.

It is, however, entirely coincidental that these notes have the letter Z in their prefix and are in the 9 million range. In this particular note order, there will be other notes with the letter Z and the 9 million range, which were not necessarily used to take the place of notes that did not meet the quality standards during the production process.

I hope this information is helpful.

Sincerely,

Linda Setlakwe
Currency Education
Bank of Canada"


The Bank of Canada is clearly dancing around the topic in order to gain neutrality in their comments. If the notes were not used as replacements, they would not have offered the possibility of why the notes were discovered in that order. They would have simply abolished the idea of 'insert replacements'.
friedsquid
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« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2008, 10:35:27 am »

Originally I had always preferred what I would call the "*" replacement note since these are what I always believed were the true "replacements".  Easy to distinguish from the regular notes of the same series.
However, having originally brick searched for years looking for errors only, and honestly not even being aware of the now known "insert" note I wonder how many did I miss during my years of searching.  It wasn't until about a year ago that I came upon this site and picked up a new catalogue and started to see the ranges of these so called "insert notes".  I started to heavily brick search again and started to come across these unique notes.  As time passed, I had dry spells with no inserts and some very good luck at times, but I did see that it was not as easy as getting  a brick and getting an insert in it.  The benefits do not always out weight the costs, but it is addicting to say the least.
Many of my finds have been confirmed and some still awaiting that confirmation, but all in all it is like finding a needle in a haystack at times, but I enjoy it.
I started to collect them, buy them, and trade them, and now my insert/replacement notes are the bulk of my collection.  Hopefully it is not a fad, or a trend, and maybe just a lull in the market because of tougher times, but when you personally find one, it is special because you know that not everyone has one or can easily get one.  Only my opinion, but to each his own. ;D


FRIEDSQUID



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BWJM
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« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2008, 10:43:25 am »

The following is a response from a Bank of Canada representative to a private collector. The information is available on the internet;

"Following our telephone conversation and as discussed, this is the information you requested regarding the GPZ $5's and FDZ $10's that some collectors have noticed amongst bundles of notes received from financial institutions.

It seems highly likely that these notes were used to take the place of notes that did not meet quality standards set by the Bank. In a specific note order, there is normally a series of letters that are set aside by the printer for this purpose.

It is, however, entirely coincidental that these notes have the letter Z in their prefix and are in the 9 million range. In this particular note order, there will be other notes with the letter Z and the 9 million range, which were not necessarily used to take the place of notes that did not meet the quality standards during the production process.

Yeah.... That doesn't confirm squat, in my opinion. That could just be a response from someone who looked at your email, said "yeah, that looks like it could be true" and replied accordingly. The BoC hasn't committed to a single thing in that email.

Even if it had, that would only lend credibility to two insert ranges, and not even say that the ranges themselves are correct. That would say nothing about any other insert range, which is largely just a guess by any of several different people.
friedsquid
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« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2008, 10:55:33 am »

Quote
Yeah.... That doesn't confirm squat, in my opinion. That could just be a response from someone who looked at your email, said "yeah, that looks like it could be true" and replied accordingly. The BoC hasn't committed to a single thing in that email.

Even if it had, that would only lend credibility to two insert ranges, and not even say that the ranges themselves are correct. That would say nothing about any other insert range, which is largely just a guess by any of several different people.

So I guess if I was going to auction off my insert collection you wouldn't want to do it. ;D



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Oli1001
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« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2008, 12:42:52 pm »

Yeah.... That doesn't confirm squat, in my opinion. That could just be a response from someone who looked at your email, said "yeah, that looks like it could be true" and replied accordingly. The BoC hasn't committed to a single thing in that email.

Even if it had, that would only lend credibility to two insert ranges, and not even say that the ranges themselves are correct. That would say nothing about any other insert range, which is largely just a guess by any of several different people.


There is no doubt that the Bank of Canada recognizes inserts as replacements. There are emails out their confirming that fact but I am unable to use them as support for my argument because they are not of public domain.

I do agree that each specific range is determined by collectors but they are by no means done arbitrarily. The information is gathered from a network of trusted collectors across Canada.

The ranges may not be exact but they are very accurate. Only until/if the Bank of Canada releases records will those figures be exact. If they kept information on test note ranges (ER/GR), then it is possible for them to have kept information on modern replacements as well.
Punkys Dad
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« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2008, 02:46:45 pm »

This means that the forum will become boring and will be revised to have the following category structure,

CANADIAN PAPER MONEY FORUM
      SPECIAL
        ASTERISKS and X-NOTES
         INSERTS and so-called-REPLACEMENTS-now-just   
                   –regular-notes-so-what-do-I-care-anymore.

Instead of brick searching I’d be at home counting and recounting my anti-depressants and signing up for needlepoint classes. Anyone know a good needlepoint forum?
It was nice while it lasted  :'(

PD


Teeny guy on my shoulder sez, It's only money mon
polarbear
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« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2008, 03:16:44 pm »

hi members 

here is my opinion.  I am a brick searcher and have relayed much of my finding to the appropriate people.


why would you put a totally different  prefix in a virgin brick.

hypothetical Example
 APG  5674000-APG 5674999  brick

 APF  2023XXX note is replacing APG 567688 because it is not there.

 why put APF in in the first place?

 Would it not be better to just keep the serial numbers continuous and have this original virgin brick be APG 5674000-APG 5675001.    Doesn't make sense does it.  If there is a total of 40 000 errors in 10 million notes we would only made 9600000 notes.  Screws up everything. 

So we get some guy or gal working at the printing shop to physically replace these notes for the ones that are originally taken out. 

Seems like more work for the printing company.

My real thoughts are that there were huge numbers of asteriks and x notes produced. It could be more then what is produced as modern day replacements

Dealers nowadays are too lazy to see that there is a possible new addition to the hobby with replacement notes and are just comfortable with the idea of having to look at plain and simple asterick/x notes.   
 

We as the hobby collector decide what is going to be popular and what is not.  We have beleived that asteriks and rotators, GR and BER are popular.  The modern day replacements is just a continuation of the hobby  and really shows us collectors and brickers that ....Wow the printing company really can make  a lot of mistakes even with all this technology they  have.

Probally never have there been so many eyes on the Bank of Canada asking so many questions on the production of paper money. 

cheers

Polarbear
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« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2008, 06:53:23 pm »

I am very new collecting paper money.  However, I am not new to collecting.  (When asked about hobbies, my answer is that participating in various hobbies is my hobby!  ;D)

My basic thought on this, is that a price guide is an attempt to document the market place not an attempt to create the market place.  A price guide may confirm to some buyers that a given price is reasonable or not, but it does not drive the value.  The value of a given item is merely the price for which sellers and buyers agree to meet.

Have you ever been to an auction (another hobby of mine) and see something go for substantially more or substantially less than you could have imagined?  I have seen both.  Once time I was hoping to buy something specific for $20 and it went for over $200.  I have also seen items that I felt were "worth" hundreds of dollars go for tens of dollars.  I didn't buy them, because the final prices weren't worth that to me.

So, it is plausible that some collectors may stop collecting replacement notes if they do not have a good price guide to compare value.  However, how many people here would just toss their replacement collection into circulation to get face value for it?  I suspect not many.  If many do, then known replacement notes in uncirculated condition will become even rarer.

As for the future, who knows?  I have watched interesting patterns regarding value.  Most collectibles go in cycles.  If have seen situations where many people are interested in a particular item just because it appears that other people are interested in it.  Values for such items are interesting roller-coasters.  They spike up in value quickly, because everyone sees it as the next hot thing.  Then once people try to sell their hoard, prices drop substantially when they realize there are many more sellers than buyers.

So, my opinion is that if Charlton stopped publishing prices for some replacement notes, it would be an annoyance, not an end to a hobby.
Ottawa
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« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2008, 07:21:26 pm »

..... Thus, whereas "traditional" replacement notes (i.e., Asterisk notes and X-suffix notes) were prepared specifically with the intention of performing replacement duty, modern insert notes are not (as far as we know) prepared specifically to perform replacement duty. Modern insert notes are nothing more than regular-issue notes that are taken "off the shelf" when a need for replacement notes arises (the only exception to this would be a distinctive prefix that was employed solely for insert purposes) ...........

I can certainly understand the thrill of locating insert notes when one withdraws cash at an ATM or when one is searching through a bank brick. Unfortunately, the latter scenario, which requires substantial cash resources, doesn't apply to me! In fact, a few months ago I experienced the "thrill" in person when I withdrew $1000 cash at an ATM and received 50 crisp new $20 notes. This stash comprised 46 regular EZN notes and 4 EZL (8.640M-9.000M) notes. The 4 EZL notes appeared "back to back" by the way. I subsequently sold off the EZL notes on eBay in two lots (see Item 220201329496) as I found that the "thrill" quickly wore off after owning the notes for a couple of weeks!

The main point of my previous post was to emphasize the fundamental nature of modern insert notes. In my opinion, modern insert notes are nothing more than regularly-printed notes that are grabbed off the shelf or out of storage when a need for replacement notes arises. These notes may indeed have been employed for replacement purposes, but, in my opinion, they were not specifically printed for replacement purposes in the way that Asterisk and X-suffix notes were. Herein lies the immense fundamental difference between modern insert notes and Asterisk & X-suffix notes.

In order to further emphasize my points, just suppose that you were to show a crisp 1954 Asterisk note to a paper money dealer in Britain, Singapore, or Australia. Based upon my personal experiences, I can assure you that the dealer would be very interested in acquiring it! However, try convincing an overseas dealer (and probably some Canadian dealers too) that your Unc $20 AZN 3150222 note is worth $250 while the Unc $20 AZN 3140222 note in his shop is worth just $35 ..... and see what sort of reaction you'll get!

There's certainly nothing wrong with studying and collecting modern insert notes but I personally feel that they have been over-hyped for what they really are. I just don't see how these modern insert notes will be able to maintain their collector interest level and value over the long haul, i.e., the next 10, 20 or more years .... but maybe I'm missing something?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2008, 08:41:39 pm by Ottawa »

" Buy the very best notes that you can afford and keep them for at least 10 years. " (Richard D. Lockwood, private communication, 1978).
Ottawa
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« Reply #21 on: April 16, 2008, 09:33:22 pm »

It should be stressed, and strongly so, that not all notes that were originally printed as replacements were necessarily used for replacement purposes.  Whenever replacement notes don't get used up for their intended purpose they can, at least in principle, be issued in bulk just like regular notes. This assertion would explain the existence of many improbably long sequences of consecutive replacement notes that are known. This matter involving long sequences of replacement notes is addressed in more detail in the following recent thread:

http://www.cdnpapermoney.com/forum/index.php?topic=7261.0

In closing, it is important to stress that the above observations apply equally well to discernible replacements (i.e., Asterisk and X-suffix notes) as well as to non-discernible replacements (i.e., modern inserts).
« Last Edit: April 17, 2008, 07:05:06 am by Ottawa »

" Buy the very best notes that you can afford and keep them for at least 10 years. " (Richard D. Lockwood, private communication, 1978).
friedsquid
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« Reply #22 on: April 16, 2008, 09:52:24 pm »

Quote
not all notes that were originally printed as replacements were necessarily used for replacement purposes.  Whenever replacement notes don't get used up for their intended purpose they can in principle be issued in bulk just like regular notes,
So then, are we overpaying for asterisk replacements that are not really replacements in the true sense.    ???
I better just stick with the asterisk devil face notes .....they have to be worth something ;D



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Hudson A B
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« Reply #23 on: April 16, 2008, 10:56:15 pm »

Replacements (which is what they are) are a part of the collecting hobby.

I don't see them vanishing.
We must not forget the role modern replacements have had in our discovery of very detailed banknote information.

It helped me win a case in court btw. 

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Ottawa
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« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2008, 07:33:17 am »

So then, are we overpaying for asterisk replacements that are not really replacements in the true sense ... ???

For me personally, it is more important that the note in question was specifically printed for replacement purposes than whether it was actually used for replacement purposes. In particular, the exact route which an Asterisk note or X-suffix note actually followed from the time it was printed to the time that it gets into my hands today (typically 10 to 50 years later) does not worry me at all. However, I realize that other collectors may have different viewpoints on this matter, especially in the context of non-discernible modern insert notes.

Perhaps we should introduce the concept of a "remainder" replacement to describe those replacement notes that were specifically printed for replacement purposes but did not actually perform replacement duty. This would be analogous to the old chartered bank remainder notes, i.e., those that were prepared for use but were never fully signed and put into circulation.

By the way, what Hudson said about the study of modern replacement notes leading to the unearthing of detailed bank note printing and related information is very true indeed. This is a scholarly and useful endeavour.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2008, 07:45:02 am by Ottawa »

" Buy the very best notes that you can afford and keep them for at least 10 years. " (Richard D. Lockwood, private communication, 1978).
friedsquid
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« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2008, 07:45:02 am »

Maybe in the new series that follows the Journey's, the Bank of Canada could come up with a better way  than using ranges of certain serial numbers for replacement notes......How about doing something like WHERE'S WALDO?
They could hide him somewhere within the note and really make this hobby fun.
I bet we could get a lot more kids interested in collecting too.... ;D
And maybe some "WHERE'S BRAD PITT OR TOM CRUISE" so we can get some of our wifes to start collecting too.



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Oli1001
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« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2008, 07:52:46 am »

I can certainly understand the thrill of locating insert notes when one withdraws cash at an ATM or when one is searching through a bank brick. Unfortunately, the latter scenario, which requires substantial cash resources, doesn't apply to me! In fact, a few months ago I experienced the "thrill" in person when I withdrew $1000 cash at an ATM and received 50 crisp new $20 notes. This stash comprised 46 regular EZN notes and 4 EZL (8.640M-9.000M) notes. The 4 EZL notes appeared "back to back" by the way. I subsequently sold off the EZL notes on eBay in two lots (see Item 220201329496) as I found that the "thrill" quickly wore off after owning the notes for a couple of weeks!


The main point of my previous post was to emphasize the fundamental nature of modern insert notes. In my opinion, modern insert notes are nothing more than regularly-printed notes that are grabbed off the shelf or out of storage when a need for replacement notes arises. These notes may indeed have been employed for replacement purposes, but, in my opinion, they were not specifically printed for replacement purposes in the way that Asterisk and X-suffix notes were. Herein lies the immense fundamental difference between modern insert notes and Asterisk & X-suffix notes.

In order to further emphasize my points, just suppose that you were to show a crisp 1954 Asterisk note to a paper money dealer in Britain, Singapore, or Australia. Based upon my personal experiences, I can assure you that the dealer would be very interested in acquiring it! However, try convincing an overseas dealer (and probably some Canadian dealers too) that your Unc $20 AZN 3150222 note is worth $250 while the Unc $20 AZN 3140222 note in his shop is worth just $35 ..... and see what sort of reaction you'll get!

There's certainly nothing wrong with studying and collecting modern insert notes but I personally feel that they have been over-hyped for what they really are. I just don't see how these modern insert notes will be able to maintain their collector interest level and value over the long haul, i.e., the next 10, 20 or more years .... but maybe I'm missing something?

The immense fundamental difference between modern insert notes and Asterisk & X-suffix notes is, by your own admission, based on an opinion. Thus I am unsure why you trying to draw any conclusions from a personal opinion based on no evident facts.

All being said, I do agree that there is a possibility that not all modern insert replacements were printed for replacement purposes. It does however make it difficult to explain why many insert ranges span somewhere between 9.000M-9.9999. It seems that the 9.000M-9.9999M notes have mostly been printed and set aside for replacement purposes.

In regards to the collectability of insert notes and their level of value over the long term. They have been collected for over a decade now with seems to prove their test in time. The recent 'hype' has been attributed to a wealth of new collectors who are interested in collecting something they can see. Something they can see in the sense of being able to examine notes they see every day and collect them in any condition they find. Based on observation, few collectors start collection Chartered notes from the get go. They will usually begin collecting a few modern notes - inserts, prefixes, changeovers - and then slowly venture backwards.

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« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2008, 08:30:36 am »

The immense fundamental difference between modern insert notes and Asterisk & X-suffix notes is, by your own admission, based on an opinion. Thus I am unsure why you trying to draw any conclusions from a personal opinion based on no evident facts.

All being said, I do agree that there is a possibility that not all modern insert replacements were printed for replacement purposes. It does however make it difficult to explain why many insert ranges span somewhere between 9.000M-9.9999. It seems that the 9.000M-9.9999M notes have mostly been printed and set aside for replacement purposes.

In regards to the collectability of insert notes and their level of value over the long term. They have been collected for over a decade now with seems to prove their test in time. The recent 'hype' has been attributed to a wealth of new collectors who are interested in collecting something they can see. Something they can see in the sense of being able to examine notes they see every day and collect them in any condition they find. Based on observation, few collectors start collection Chartered notes from the get go. They will usually begin collecting a few modern notes - inserts, prefixes, changeovers - and then slowly venture backwards.

Yes, it's very true that a lot of what has been said, on all sides, is based on personal opinions that have been developed during the analysis of empirical (i.e., circumstantial) evidence. Different people will come to different conclusions based on the same evidence. However, this is the fundamental nature of research in any field of endeavour.

The most fundamental difference between traditional (Asterisk & X-suffix) replacements and modern insert replacements is that the traditional ones carry a very obvious and distinctive "label" on them that says "I'm a Replacement" or at least "I was printed as a Replacement". Modern insert notes do not carry any such obvious or distinctive label. The label, if it exists, is codified within the serial number in a very complicated, arbitrary and unpredictable way and this label is only evident via the information available on this Forum or via the Charlton catalogue. If you don't have your catalogue with you (or an excellent memory) when you come across some possible insert notes at a flea market then that would cause problems.

Another significant problem relates to the fact that some of the modern insert ranges published in the catalogue change from edition to edition as a result of new circumstantial information that comes to light. This could conceivably cause major problems for some buyers and sellers (particularly in other countries) who might be using an older edition of the catalogue. For example, someone might buy a rare insert based on what his/her older edition says only to find a few years later that their note was not an insert at all. However, presumably all insert ranges will eventually be "frozen" and not require further change.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2008, 09:39:36 am by Ottawa »

" Buy the very best notes that you can afford and keep them for at least 10 years. " (Richard D. Lockwood, private communication, 1978).
hanmer
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« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2008, 07:28:47 pm »

I've bought a few, and found a few. I like the idea of * or X to denote a replacement note, but they still serve the same purpose. I do see the point concerning overseas dealers, they'll just buy more RADAR notes instead.

:)


:)
Dr.Bill
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« Reply #29 on: April 18, 2008, 08:21:58 pm »

I agree with Freedomschoice statement that many collectors will abandon  the hobby if modern replacement notes and snr’s are not included in Charlton’s 21th edition. In that case, there is no need to purchase a Charlton’s catalogue. I would be very disappointed if modern replacements notes are omitted and I am sure many of you would agree with me that it should be listed.

We know that modern replacement notes do exist, whether it is discernible or indiscernible from regular notes. 

My prediction is that modern replacements and snr’s will be listed in Charlton’s 21st edition. However, there will be changes to some of the ranges as new research and information becomes available.

There will always be skeptics and nonbelievers regarding this topic, just as there are people who thinks they can treat the common cold with antibiotics.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2008, 09:10:41 am by Dr.Bill »
Ottawa
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« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2008, 08:39:04 am »

...... All being said, I do agree that there is a possibility that not all modern insert replacements were printed for replacement purposes. It does however make it difficult to explain why many insert ranges span somewhere between 9.000M-9.9999M. It seems that the 9.000M-9.9999M notes have mostly been printed and set aside for replacement purposes.

I would have to disagree with the notion that many or most modern insert ranges span the 9.000M-9.999M range. In particular, if you look at pages 340, 343, 345, 347, 349, 351 and 353 in the latest catalogue you will see that the insert ranges are spread out "all over the map" with relatively few over 9.000M.  The actual incidence of 9.000M+ insert ranges is as follows: page 340 (13 out of a total of 44), page 343 (3 out of 7), page 345 (10 out of 14), page 347 (1 out of 13), page 349 (17 out of 33), page 351 (2 out of 4), and 353 (zero out of 16) for a cumulative total incidence of 46 out of 131 = 35.1%.

If you scrutinize all of the available insert range data for all denominations cumulatively then it becomes clear that the insert ranges are spread out right across the map from 0.000M to 9.999M in an apparently arbitrary, unpredictable and even disorganized way. If you examine the available data from a purely mathematical and unbiased point of view, I would argue that the data support my contention that insert notes are merely regularly-printed notes that are taken "off the shelf" whenever a need for replacement notes arises. If this is not the case then the printing companies are creating an immense amount of extra work for themselves by (1) having to decide what serial number range to assign to the next batch of inserts; (2) having to set up the numbering machines specially for each short insert "micro-range"; and then (3) having to keep detailed bookkeeping records of all of the numerous insert micro-ranges. In my opinion, this is a very unlikely scenario.

Conversely, if all insert notes without exception were numbered within just one or two specific ranges, e.g. 0.000M-0.999M or 9.000M-9.999M, then this would make an equally convincing argument that insert notes are indeed numbered specifically for insert purposes. However, in my opinion, the huge quantity of data that are available do not support this view.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2008, 10:30:21 am by Ottawa »

" Buy the very best notes that you can afford and keep them for at least 10 years. " (Richard D. Lockwood, private communication, 1978).
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« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2008, 08:55:12 pm »

... then this would make an equally convincing argument that insert notes are indeed numbered specifically for insert purposes. However, in my opinion, the huge quantity of data that are available do not support this view.

With all due respect, I am not totally clear on what you are saying. 

I would just simply like to add, though ranges may be all over the map, they are chosen to be replacements at some stage.  Spoilage rates vary, even within companies, therefore, having the flexibility of grabbing a ream or a brick of notes from wherever, allows the company to use it's stock up in a FIFO way more efficiently.

Just my thoughts.

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Ottawa
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« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2008, 05:13:48 am »

With all due respect, I am not totally clear on what you are saying.  I would just simply like to add, though ranges may be all over the map, they are chosen to be replacements at some stage.  ..............

There's certainly no doubt whatsoever that they were chosen to be used as replacements at some stage in the overall process. My point all along has been that the notes that are used for insert purposes do not appear (based on the available evidence) to have been deliberately and methodically numbered for specific use as replacement notes. I am of the opinion that modern insert replacement notes are intrinsically "regular" notes that, at some stage in the overall process, are taken "off the shelf" from existing pre-printed stocks and at that stage are arbitrarily assigned replacement status and then used in that capacity.

One can therefore visualize two "streams" of regularly numbered notes making their way through the process at the printing companies, i.e., (1) a stream of "regular" notes, and (2) a separate stream of regular notes that have arbitrarily been assigned the status of "replacement/insert" note. Eventually, these two streams of regular notes mix together and are released into circulation. My hypothesis may, of course, be incorrect but I am not aware of any evidence to the effect that modern replacement notes are assigned special serial number ranges by the printing companies in a deliberate and methodical manner. It's a great pity that modern replacement notes don't have a fluorescent tag or a micro-dot on them ....
« Last Edit: April 21, 2008, 02:08:01 pm by Ottawa »

" Buy the very best notes that you can afford and keep them for at least 10 years. " (Richard D. Lockwood, private communication, 1978).
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« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2008, 02:06:36 pm »

There's certainly no doubt whatsoever that they were chosen to be used as replacements at some stage in the overall process. My point all along has been that the notes that are used for insert purposes do not appear (based on the available evidence) to have been deliberately and methodically numbered for use as replacement notes. I am of the opinion that modern insert replacement notes are intrinsically "regular" notes that, at some stage in the overall process, are taken "off the shelf" from existing pre-printed stocks and at that stage are arbitrarily assigned insert status and then used in that capacity.
No arguement there!  :-)  Because there is not a standard method to tell, (x or * for example), the liklihood of us knowing with perfect certainty is low, although it seems likely that they do grab them whenever needed.


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