The Pricing Panel

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Take note of the members of the pricing panel in the 18th Edition Charlton.

After considerable discussion with many members of the collecting community,at shows and various other venues,the consensus leaned towards a few of these contributors being out of touch.

For instance,the discussion would eventually come to how much did/do these pricing panel members sell when it comes to paper money?Are they some of the top sellers in the community?
Why not have a few ebay members that are the top sellers in Canadian Paper Money as members of the pricing panel? Would this not help to set more realistic and more current pricing regarding trends?

Do the old school dealers,having at one time paid $600 for a 1935 English $2.00 Unc find it difficult to see the updated Catalogue reflect a current trend to $2000 for the same note?
I recently saw the same above mentioned note sell on ebay for $2200?So is $2000 unreasonable? Where do they come up with $1500 in the current edition? Try and buy one at that price!

Several respected members of this forum have stated the current 18th Edition is so out of date and touch with reality in regards to rare uncirculated notes,that one wonders if power sellers and respected members of the ebay community would help to alleviate this imbalance?

So many questions.Outta be a conterversial subject
I have left out the names of the pricing panel that imo are valid contibuors,as well as ones I feel are redundant.But that does not alter reality,or perceptions.

What say you?

Buy that man a beer and send me the bill.

Enjoy the thread guys, I am sitting this one out unless invited for specific comment.

Troy.

Some of the prices that i feel are very underpriced in the 18th edition (by series)

1954 Modified
$5 *R/C
1969-1979 Multicoloured
$1 AAX/EAX Lawson-Bouey Litho.
$10 EDX Crow-Bouey Steel engr.
1986-1991 Birds
$5 ANX, FNX Bonin-Thiessen
$10 BDH Thiessen-Crow
$10 ATX Bonin-Thiessen
$20 EVH No Back Plate No.
$50 EHX Below 0.9m
In my opinion

Hi All !
I see that all Dominion Specimen Notes are very undervalued.
dcollector

I have talked to several past and present members of the pricing panel that have  felt the fustration of their opinions regarding the increasing value(s) of paper money being ignored, and relegated to the trash bin of ideas.
Several have quit or given up in total fustration.

So again,what in heavens name is guiding the decisions of this pricing panel? Has the old guard to much sway to allow the "new" upward trends to take hold in print?

At the risk of being repetitive,has anyone tried to buy a Gem Unc 54 Devils Face $5 Coyne/Towers at current book of $285?
HA! Saw one offered at a dealers in the lower mainland for $350.I stated that's quite a premium over THE NEW BOOK.His reply"Try and get one,and how do I replace it?"

No,it aint adding up.

Just to clarify,I'm not attacking the Charlton Press or it's members.A guide is a guide is a guide.
But a guide is like a map.You need it so as not to get lost. Man o man,every time I try to buy at the current unc price for rare notes,people laugh in my face.
I might as well be lost.

respectfully runningonempty.


Note to Troy:As one of ebays top,if not the top seller in Canadian Paper Money,your opinion is highly regarded here to this novice.

The Charlton Catalogue is out of date before it hits the stands.
I pay over catalogue on 60% of the notes I buy. Good luck getting most of the notes at catalogue.

For example:
Try to get a 1954 *N/Y for $300 (Yah Right). I'll gladly pay someone $500 for a nice Choice UNC...... Any takers ??  

John

Before this topic shifts a little off-centre, let's try to avoid repeating over and over again (JB) which notes we think are undervalued.

Also just in case anyone was thinking of it, please do not make any personal remarks about any particular member of the pricing panel, or anyone in particular, period. We've been down that road before with opinionated comments directed at various individuals, and I will rain on the parade of everyone who tries bringing us down that road again.

On that note, back to the discussion! Please focus your replies to the matter addressed by runningonempty.

Troy, if I buy myself a beer, can I send you the bill?

Sure,

All you need to do is say you agree with runningonempty and I will gladly accept the receipt

He has raised an ultra important topic that should not be just another discussion but instead a call to action. Australian notes are up an average of 30% year over year now because they have their act together and the market is not being artificially constrained. The visionaires there also have a global view of the market.

I received several emails and calls from domestic and international collectors and traders of Canadian Paper Money that echoed this "I received the 18th edition of the price guide but where are the current prices?".  My heart sank each time and I sensed we as an industry and hobby are starting to lose some internal and international respect.  No matter how hot the market is it always seems to be modest incremental 5-10% gains on certain notes (with a few exceptions), the same old comfortable year over year approach. It is time to cut the noose being held tightly around the neck of our market.

Having said that the Charlton guide is still ultra important and deserves great respect, I believe it is a very impressive piece of work, but it is a critical time for it to evolve and I believe lagging behind in this regard by 1-2 years. This can easily be forgiven by the market with a few brave steps now.

The market needs and wants what it believes is proper accounting for the evolution of Internet trading which has and still is changing the face of the earth in just about every industry known. It would also benefit if it had someone the market believed represented the "leading edge" of the overall market.

There are seemingly two "versions" of market realities that exist, the one as presented by Charlton and the one that I know, which is the same one most of you know too. There needs to be one version for complete market harmony and credibility.

The market is a monster that can come back to get you if you don't take proper care of it, feed it what it wants and needs and it will love you for it.


Troy

p.s. see what you made me go and do, I was supposed to sit this one out  

 Just a little word to mention about this post.  From what I have heard there are always complaints about pricing.  The panel has to be careful about pricing.  When notes are priced too high, the collectors cry.  When they are priced too low the sellers cry.  I myself are for the collectors and as far as the dealers go, they buy at a certain  percentage of the catalogue value using Charlton as a guide and then sell the notes at a profit.  Personally I don't see a problem with the pricing.

Tom

Hi Tom,

Good to hear from you.

I think some anxiety may be coming from the fact that the percentage that dealers are paying exceeds 100% on some critical issues and it is hard to reconcile that and the concept of a "new price guide" in the same thought. Collectors would also like be informed as to what is being done to account for the evolving online market.

Collectors are accustomed to an environment where dealers pay a number less than 100% on the buy side and attempt to sell it at full book or a number near that.

I would rather not single out a long list of notes that dealer buy price exceeds 18th edition book price as I would prefer to keep this more at the 30,000 foot level.

I believe there is valid reason to at least reconsider the current approach to pricing.

Troy

I don't want to get into this thing too deeply so I will restrict my comments to a few notes that have been specifially mentioned and current pricing in the new Charlton.

1954 C/T devils face $5 GEM uncirculated :

If the dealer decides that this note is far superior to a regular perfect uncirculated, as would be indicated by his use of "GEM", a premium of 25% over book is not unreasonable. Charlton does make reference to premiums for exceptional notes.

1991 $20 EVH NBPN UNC:

I beleive an uncirculated example was sold last winter at  the Hamilton Auction for somewhere around 2500.00. The auction process attracted multiple bidders vying for what was thought, by some, to possibly be the only one of its grade.  Was the hammer price wrong? Multiple bidders on a scarce item often lose control in the heat of the moment. Another example showed itself a few weeks ago in Hong Kong. On a one on one sale the realised price was 700.00 cdn. Which price is right? As a buyer of one of these notes I would think Charltons price is about right. If I had one to sell I would certainly make a big deal over the auction price realised and demand a price well in excess of Charltons'.

1935 $2 English in UNC:

Sold on eBay at 2200.00. I don't know if this particular sale materialized before or after the March 31 deadline for repricing but it is a consideration. I take it that this note was quite desirable because it attracted multiple bidders. As with many eBay auctions I expect that the item was well promoted and the owner had a good reputation. Add this to a frenzied multiple bidder situation and the I'm not a bit surprized that the realised price was 46% above Charltons' suggested price. Was the realized price right? Who knows for sure. If the new owner were to put the same note on eBay again and realize the same price we would have a better idea.

1989 BDH T/C:

I beleive one of these notes sold on eBay for 1000.00 US last fall. The owner had a high reserve on the note and and have to list a number of times before it eventually sold. He promoted the notes' value by saying it should be at least that of a 1971 EET L/B. Finally, multiple bidders, drove the price past the owners reserve. Was the realized price right? Another example showed up on eBay not long after and realized somewhere around 500.00US.

Gary

I think we'd all like to hear a well thought out, practical solution to the pricing panel problem. I don't think that what we currently have now is perfect, but I also haven't heard any constructive ideas for improvement.

Rick's trends seem to work for coins, in conjunction with Charlton. Trends for Paper Money seems to be slowly catching on.

As for using eBay as your sole source of information, I think that's a mistake. Basing standardized pricing on a sample of one note, from an unrealiable "medium" as eBay, seems extremely error prone. I think the panel tries to balance "blips" with a more sober process, but I don't know the details.

Of the thousands of notes and pricing, there will always be disagreement on a few and part of the reason for the "Charlton Update" section here on the CPMF is to give people a process whereby they can address those. I'm not sure we need to through the baby out with the bath water though.

eBay does have its own ineffiencies and unqiue pricing events, for better and for worse, like a lot of markets.

I don't believe anyone is advocating eBay be the sole source for information. Just because one agrues it is important and deserves serious recongition it should not be inferred that it is being recommended as the sole voice, that would be ridiculous.

What is truly unqiue and important about eBay is that it is the single largest available liquid market (24x7x365 at that) for Canadian Paper Money in the world and only getting bigger.

Tons of collectors of CDN Paper Money (particularly those in remote or International regions) rely on eBay as their buy channel and as their reality check.

eBay matters a whole lot; and more and more every day. Sooner or later this needs to be properly accounted for and disclosures given on how this is being done.

One way or another this is going to be addressed by the market as the market almost always gets what it wants, one way or another.

Troy.

Charlton does not have a legislated monopoly on the pricing of Canadian notes.  They're just publishing company trying to make money by selling books to niche markets.

If enough people are dissatisfied with the Charlton pricing panel, there's nothing stopping anyone from starting up their own business and publishing a catalogue that they feels represents more realistic prices.  The new catalogue would compete directly with the Charlton, and if there is enough collector interest and respect in it, will outsell the Charlton and become the new "bible" for Canadian collectors.

If somebody doesn't like the Charlton, then for heaven's sake, DON'T buy it and quit whining!

lol,

Now that's food for thought  

That is what I was eluding to when I said one way or another this is going to be addressed as the market almost always gets what it wants.

Troy