Charlton Catalogue and XXI century.

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The book will never disappear.  Even with all the changes in the way media is delivered to us, people love their books.

The market establishes itself. This catalogue much like the Charlton Coin or Trends is nothing more than a guide.
I see the problem to be more in the area that The Charlton Standard for grading and pricing paper money is inaccurate and out-dated. This has been the case for some years now. Because of the resistance to change on the part of Charlton or those that chair it, coupled with a hot market you are seeing a ridiculous amount of over-graded crap flooding the market at inflated prices. Much of it by "respected" dealers. This along with the reluctance to accept any deviation from the "standard" grading of Canadian bank notes, such as 3rd party certification services is going to damage the hobby in the long term. Course eventually the old schoolers will all die and then change can perhaps commence.

Charlton does not set the grading standards for banknotes. The Canadian Paper Money Society does. Check the front of your Charlton guide for confirmation.

Good topic, lots of jest going on.
The Charlton Catalogue is published, as you are all aware, yearly. The prices are stale when the book finally gets into people's hands, only because it take time to add the new prices, and time to print it and time to distribute the book. The numbering system is neat, the breakdowns of numbers made are well done, and the high-low serial numbers known are accurate at the time of publication. It ends up being the paper money bible each year.

An attempt to put trends on line was rejected (for now) by the publisher. It is not thought to be able to generate enough money. The majority of the money made at CCN is from ads, not sales of the newspaper. I like the idea of trends on line, with changes made bi-weekly. A book of paper or a book of tokens or coins on line would be a good source of constant changing information, but not necessarily a good source of revenue. It is the money thing right now, but perhaps that can be worked out in the future.

Rick
CCN trends editor

Charlton does not set the grading standards for banknotes. The Canadian Paper Money Society does. Check the front of your Charlton guide for confirmation.

I'm aware of who sets the grading standards for the Charlton Catalogue. I think I covered that to some degree in the balance of my initial post. However, we are afterall Canadian with the built in resistance to change that is inherently Canadian.
Times have changed though and not everyone has been collecting paper money since the 1950's  

Because of the resistance to change on the part of Charlton or those that chair it, coupled with a hot market you are seeing a ridiculous amount of over-graded crap flooding the market at inflated prices.

I'm not sure I follow this statement. Charlton isn't online, so how does that cause rampant over-grading?

Are you saying that the grading standards need to change because people are abusing it? Do you really think that 5 levels of UNC and 50 some odd lower grades would HELP the hobby? Is their a reason that third party graders can't use the existing system instead of making up their own? People are abusing the grading system because of GREED and because they lack INTEGRETY. I fail to understand how the grading system is to blame, nor do I understand how it is somehow Charlton's fault.

Rick has nailed it, if Charlton can't make money at it, why should they go online? I have thought of doing something like Wikipedia where we could keep our own "tends" online, there are a host of very real issues with it.

You've no doubt seen that arguments we have here on the forum when it's just talk. Can you imagine what happens when I, as a seller, change the value of note up high, and you, as buyer, change the value of the note down low and now we're fighting about money? You think the people who already let their greed overpower their integrity are going to pass up the opportunity to abuse that too?

With Charlton publishing a paper book once a year, you get well researched, well considered, relivent information. It’s not instantaneous, but for that kind of action, I would suggest the commodities markets at the TSE.

And while Wikipedia may someday put the Encyclopaedia Britannia out of business, I assure you, I won’t be doing the same to Charlton. It takes a lot of time and effort to make a “Charlton” book happen, and we struggle to just keep this forum open and running.

Having information “now” and “for free” sounds all good and dandy, until you figure out that somebody, somewhere still has to do the work, and they become targets for abuse by those who don’t contribute.

But enough of my rantings…

It's like they say, “it’s always about the money”. Those with the information want to get paid for their years of work gaining the knowledge, those without the information, want the knowledge for free and they want it now.

Paul,
I never mentioned Charlton being on-line anywhere in my post so no idea what you're on about there. However, since you brought  it up, personally I think it'd be useless and costly, besides I like the paper version. I do afterall collect paper  
Now I do apologize if I ruffled a feather, or in your case apparently the entire bird in respect to grading standards being out of date. That wasn't my intention. Let's be honest though, if the standards set forth by the CPMS in respect to grading were strictly adhered to, we'd all own what? Maybe 3 rarer notes each? Granted, those that have been collecting since WWI probably do have exceptional notes but the fact is, the market has changed , many notes are simply not available in AU let alone Unc so it stands to reason that both the CPMS and the catalogue that uses them could perhaps offer up a little more information when it comes to grading and the subjectivity of it along with more realistic prices in the EF-AU grades.
Personally I don't care what grading standards are assigned by the CPMS or any 3rd party service, when I sell a note I deal in the $ grade. As in that's a $1500.00 grade regardless what Charlton, CCGS, NGC, PCGS or Dear Abby has to say about it.
That being said, you brought up greed. Of course greed has a lot to do with over-grading. Couple that with the fact that a large majority of people who collect notes don't really know how to grade one and you have a marriage made in heaven. People who look but don't see or see only what they want to see and those that are more than willing to blind em. I hold the latter in more contempt and frankly, they're a cancer to the business and the hobby of collecting bank notes is big business
Charlton, by keeping the price spreads between EF-AU and AU-Unc so ridiculously high contribute unwittingly to this.
No matter, the old school dealers and the new school Internet hustlers have the most to lose by change but as with everything, change will come.
I'm getting a little tired of buying paper money collections from people-many of them "knowledgeable" and patiently explaining to them that the bags under George VI's eyes aren't a "variety", they're there because he's been worked harder than an urchin from "Oliver Twist" or that any Monarch would have a tear coming from their eye if they'd been pressed as hard as the one on the note had been.

Travsy, I know I'd be mad if some strange guy tried to ruffle my bird!  [My only corny joke for this post, I promise!]

I must agree with you that too many collectors seem to be stubbornly reluctant to move ahead with the times, citing the difficulties that Charlton's would have in implementing any required changes to meet the changing needs and desires of the collecting community.  Based on some of the replies under this topic, and from what I've seen elsewhere in the forum, it seems that we're always tip-toeing around Charlton's and/or the CPMS for fear of disturbing or offending them!

Charlton's should be serving paper money collectors, not vice-versa.  We need to break out of the mindset that ideas should be shelved by the collecting community as "not feasible" if Charlton's tells us so.  If Charlton's (and possibly even the CPMS for that matter) cannot accommodate the evolving needs and wants of collectors, then perhaps they should not be our "standard" any more.  Charlton's is merely a tool - if you find that you've got the wrong tool for the job, the logical thing to do is to put the wrong tool away and get the RIGHT tool.  You don't keep trying to put in a nail with a screwdriver.  Charlton's used to be a very good hammer but it is slowly, or maybe not so slowly, turning into a screwdriver.

That being said, I still believe Charlton's to be the best guide currently available to us paper money collectors - it is still the "bible" that I foresee myself using for years to come.  But being the "best available" or "good enough" does not necessarily mean that vast improvements are not sorely needed.  

I disagree with Travsy that an online version would be useless and costly...in addition to charging subscribers for subscriptions/renewals to their online services, Charlton's could also make TONS of revenue by selling advertising space in their catalogue or on a future website.  Presumably, if someone can afford to drop $6,000 for an UNC 1954 $1 *V/V note, that someone may have just a little extra disposable income...just the sort of people that BMW, Mercedes, People's Jewellers, Harry Rosen, realtors, investment dealers, etc etc would love to meet!  Not that I want to be bombarded with annoying pop-up ads...but I'm sure that Charlton's could work with the advertisers so that their "pitches" are not too intrusive.

To cite an example of an online delivery method, I am taking the Canadian Securities Course online.  Naturally there is a textbook for this course.  You can either pay an extra $70 to buy the book, or you can download a pdf version for free and view it on-screen using Adobe Acrobat. You could print off a hard copy of the entire book - so it doesn't appear that the authors of the CSC text are too concerned about students going into business for themselves downloading and selling textbooks in competition with the copies that are selling for $70.

In my marketing courses, the golden rule was "the customer is king".  Let's try to remember that - we are not the servants of Charlton's.  Charlton's exists to serve us: we are paying $20 for their book.  In return, that book should meet our needs.  Charlton's had better get with the times or else another "standard guide" is sure to emerge, sooner or later.

Unless I am sitting in front of a computer, an online catalogue would serve no real purpose to me.  Of course we are not slaves to the Charlton, but at the same time, it is the standard in which prices are guided by (remember there are many of us who contribute).  A downloadable version of some sort would be nice, but I know when I am on the road, or in a bank, or driving around and need a read at a red light, I LOVE to have the paper copy of the catalogue.  I keep it in the car, in my backpack, and on the toilet tank in the bathroom... all places I do not have a computer (although that would really be nice sometimes )

Anyway, I love the book, and I hate to see it bashed. - Added July 25th: I don't realy think  anyone is actually bashing the book - but I really couldn't think of another way of saying that I wish people would support the book either way.  (Even if they still would use e-version.)

For the record, I did my IFIC in the same fashion, on line, but I still had to print it off.  Personal preference, but I can't stand reading off a computer for along time.

Maybe you could scan the pages and put them on a website with permission, and put a link up?  Is that an option for anyone?

I am not bashing Charlton's either; I'm just saying that they need to be more flexible and more quick to adapt to changing needs or they are in serious peril of becoming hopelessly obsolete.

My earlier posts recommend an online AND maintaining a print version of Charlton's so that the possibility of a current user being "left out" is minimal.

I actually forked out the $70 for the CSC text (well, my employer did anyway) - I prefer a tangible textbook as well.  I'm glued to a computer all day at work, so that is enough.  But earlier posts by other people suggested that an online version of Charlton's wouldn't work out because unscrupulous people would download the online information and sell it to others.  Hudson, would you have been able to do this with your IFIC, as I could have with the CSC?

Maybe you could scan the pages and put them on a website with permission, and put a link up?  Is that an option for anyone?

Getting permission from the publisher (any publisher) to do this would be nearly impossible, and doing so without permission is a slam-dunk copyright violation that will easily get you sued. Just some advice before someone tries it.

To put a book on line, or prices on line, or trends on line requires a person to monitor the prices, and do the actual work. At least one full day every two weeks.

As people don't work for free, the cost would be about $200 each bi-weekly period.

On top of that, a web site is needed, computers, programs, cable connection. The cost of this is about $4000 each year.

Total about $9000 per year, and then the extra costs of converting a "book" to electronic methods, and one still needs to print the book first.

Publishing a book about Canadian paper money has a very limited market, 20,000 copies is a big run, 10,000 is more likely.

The book at under $20 barely shows a profit. Electronic sales would reduce the number of books sold, and it would be difficult to keep a handle on the number distributed and even harder to collect the money.

Lets say that 5000 people subscribe to the book on line, with bi-weekly price changes. Sales of the book drop to 5000 units.

Just doing the math, The book costs $1,000,000 annually to produce, and with sales and discounts, and shipping & handling and dealer discounts, perhaps makes $50,000 per year. Throw away half the sales, the book now loses money each year. Add the costs of the on line book, A cost of $250 to $500 per subscription would be necessary to retain the income level for the producer, with no guarantee of profits at all.

I have found the collectors will buy the book, carry it with them everywhere, and write all sorts of stuff inside it to keep the updates.

From  discussing doing such a thing with CCN, it was deemed not financially proper right now. One simply can not give the information away, and most people are not interested in paying $200-400 per year (for a Numismatic publication), nor would they likely pay that much for an on line paper money book.

Many people expect computer information to be free, it is not. Fewer again are willing to pay for information.

Some large companies with limited publications, and a large budget, do publish certain journals and make them available on line. If one looks at the really big guys, like General Electric or Proctor and Gamble, even their on line stuff is pretty much nothing more than advertising.

Conclusion, it is not cost effective to put a paper money book (on a small market) on line to fulfill the wishes of some. If Charlton's (Bill Cross), or Trajan Publishing thought it was profitable, it would be done. Until then, it won't.

Rick

Bitburger, thank you for introducing this topic!  These are the types of debates I love!  I have really enjoyed this topic because thus far, we have presented sometimes conflicting points of view without disrespecting each other.

Rick's point is well-taken in that perhaps there is not (yet) a large enough market to warrant an online version at this time.

I'm just hoping that Charlton's finds the online version economically viable in the near future...

I have history of openly and publicly challenging some of the logic contained in the extremely important Charlton guide and I have also contemplated the effort involved to accomplish what is being suggested in this thread and I both agree and disagree with various portions of Rick's last post.

I submit that under-stated were the effort and most importantly the cost involved to bring the catalogue online and maintain it in a way that the project will have sustainable credibility and viability. All one has to do is build an ecommerce company or venture (larger than the typical ma and pa one) to get a handle on just how much initial forecasts can be off, IT cost analysis is quite complex.  

I do not follow the math presented either. If the book costs $1m to produce then how does it survive at 10,000-20,000 copies sold at $10-$20 a unit depending on the size of the order?  That is less than $400,000 in total sales under ideal conditions. I buy my books at about $10 each and 50 at a time.

Given the huge impact the Internet is having on the market (and more so every day) I believe the pricing panel needs to be expanded to add further credibility to the guide and provide some much needed forward thinking, in terms of how the guide needs to present itself on the market from every aspect.  The market is more dynamic than ever and it is a critical time for those involved with the Charlton Guide to take some evolutionary steps.

Increased profit should be the goal and result of the evolution for Charlton so long as the steps taken are what the majority of the CDN Paper market wants/needs and is following or just slightly ahead of its markets evolutionary ways.

Troy

Sensitive bunch here.  
I fail to see where anyone "bashed" Charlton and as for grading, well, whatever. Things will change.
The Charlton Catalogue is a good thing to have around but if anyone uses it as their "bible" when going after rarer accurately graded notes, good luck to you.