Charlton Catalogue and XXI century.

News: Welcome to the Canadian Paper Money Forum.

Thank you Brent!Dealt with in a most appropriate manner !

As some what of a novice,my thoughts may be immature in nature,but investment is my game.

It would seem that Charlton indeed is out of date as to price when it comes to rare uncirculated notes.Try and find a dealer that will sell you a true uncirculated note  1937 or below at book unc prices.

The dilema becomes,how to show a true reflection of CURRENT market prices.
A combination of on-line and catalogue would go a long way to help accomplish this imo.
I would have no problem with pop-ups,aq bsubscription fee,and any other advertising deemed suitable to have this venture pay for itself.

A mutual fund in paper? A concept that intrigues and yet boggles the mind
Troy,if you pull that off,you deserve all the success that it shall surely deliver its founders.And investors.

Thanks,

Let's not put the cart in front of the horse though, it is a fascinating concept no doubt and one of Canada's top hedge fund managers finds it intriguing along with a few of Canada's most active numismatic traders and investors that I have shopped the idea around with.

I think the market support would be there so long as the fund is run with full transparency and the team has enough of the right people onboard to have "street" credibility. It is the founders job to assemble such a team.

My main hurdle right now is legislative and it will take some time to work through whether or not this is workable.

If it is then green light means go!

Troy

Please stick to the topic of this post: Charlton Catalogue and the 21st Century.

Discussion of the proposed financial endeavour should occur in another thread. Further posts on that subject in this thread will be edited or removed without prejudice.

Thank you.

I would welcome the exporting of the numismatic fund topic to a thread of its own as there appears to interest.


Troy

You are welcome to do so, just don't continue the discussion in this thread.

Feel free to export what is already here if you wish to such a new thread.

I believe there may be a couple of posts related to it which can be consolidated in case there are additional questions or comments that come up.

Troy

This topic is now so far away from the original that it ceases to have any importance or signifigance.

The new catalogue is a wonderful piece of literature in the form of a book. It is not on line for various reasons primarily due to cost and other factors, including lack of interest.

The number of paper money collectors in Canada is small, too small to make it profitable to run an on line book of constantly changing prices.

Suggest anyone who believes it can be done at a profit contact Mr. William Cross and offer to do it for him. See what he says. See if you would be willing to spend your own money to satisfy your own curiosity about on line information, given out freely or install a security network with a fee being charged and all the inherent details of collecting that fee for viewing to subscribers.

If fact, try this on any subject, perhaps one with a much larger base than paper money collectors.

Just my thoughts, but I have the feeling that this subject is just about talked to death.

Rick

(Before the thread is closed)
   
   Rick’s two emphatic last words put things in strong perspective.  He also points out the reality in this hobby, more people are in this for profit than for fun, which leads to speculation.    Profit is not a dirty word, neither is fun nor friendship. But I am sure there are enough of us who basically enjoy looking at banknotes as pieces of beauty, who love the thrill of hunting down certain uncommon notes (filling a hole in our albums),  who enjoy spending time studying the back plate/position numbers, who love trade notes at bar with fellow collectors.  (tsk, tsk).   Profit is nice but not essential to us; profit is not everything.    For most of us, it is just a hobby and probably a long term investment.  
  Anyway ….
   It is easy to see there are those who love to see an e-catalogue; and there are those who prefer the status quo, partly because of reality and partly economics.
     A  focus of debate is the cost of putting on such an e-catalogue, namely, the viability.  But it appears few have calculated the cost seriously or realistically.  For example, few acknowledged the fact that Charlton already has a big website which allows customers to order products, that also means personnel is in place.  
   If electronic magazines /journals and database by subscriptions are totally not viable how come most magazines/ database /associations /clubs are on internet? (Except CPMS, which is another story.  But I understand CPMS has not changed much in the past 20 years. …Come to think of it, neither has Charlton’s catalogue.)   I guess the question is whether the collectors are getting the money’s worth in the catalogue, printed or online,  year in year out. What if you only collect the modern issues?    Perhaps some people / businesses would rather stick with status quo, out of fear of the unknown, tech-phobic or old age.
    In the end, I don’t think Charlton gains any more insights out of the debate to help its decisions one way or another on the venture.
 But I hope Charlton would give e-catalogue some serious thought, even experiment.  No business is sure of success.  
Don

Not really wanting to re-open old wounds, but one of the things mentioned was about Charles Moore finishing as CPMS President shortly. It implies that he has done little to assist the paper money society in its quest for improvements in things like the Charlton Catalogue.

The CPMS has few members, certainly not enough to matter with books or influence their scope to any great extent. Mr. Moore managed to get $5000 in hard cash to help prevent the CPMS going under.
This money came from CAND.

CAND also has little influence on the Catalogue beyond what members may contribute to that book, led by several well known paper money experts including members Charles Moore and Don Olmstead.

I think the expertise is in place, and on reading the book, I found it to be an excellent source of information. Prices change quickly as many on these pages attest to. The book is a snapshot of the information on prices when it was put together.

Rick

There is a detailed discussion under way in the pricing panel thread if you wish to join the rest of us there.

If you want to test this new angle of yours to see it tested like the others before it please bring the discussion there.

Perhaps those who cut the trees that were used to print the book have also been disrespected because we want a potentially more modern approach and better representation of the online market.

Let's give this angle a go too and if it slams into a wall like all the other attempts before it to deflect the core issue.

Seeking evolution does not mean what came before it wasn't great, however markets evolve and so must the approach.

A flank attack on this issue will not work.

Troy.

Try to say whatever it is you are trying to say without being so critical. I am following this topic, not the other one at the moment.

I wonder why some people just want to re-write the prices? Read the whole book, and if you are really not pleased with it, write your own.

I believe I have followed THIS topic, something that you could try in fewer words.

The pricing stuff opened in another topic is a different topic completely.

There is a detailed discussion under way in the pricing panel thread if you wish to join the rest of us there. (I am aware of it, thanks very much)

If you want to test this new angle of yours to see it tested like the others before it please bring the discussion there.  (What angle are you talking about. I will discuss this topic in this section)

Perhaps those who cut the trees that were used to print the book have also been disrespected because we want a potentially more modern approach and better representation of the online market.  (More modern is your version of an electronic price list?)

Let's give this angle a go too and if it slams into a wall like all the other attempts before it to deflect the core issue.  (What angle is that?)

Seeking evolution does not mean what came before it wasn't great, however markets evolve and so must the approach. (Evolution apparently doesn't always work, I suppose)

A flank attack on this issue will not work.
(This statement is without merit, flank attack indeed)

Rick

It is clear what you were attempting to do and it isn't going to work.

I am happy to inform you of this here in this thread or the other one.

The fact that you attempted to connect a desire to feed the market improved information on a go forward basis (in light of changing market dynamics) with 'it therefore follows we are saying Chuck didn't do a good job' is absurd and just about the worst kind of spin on this I could conceive of.

Shaking my head in disbelief wondering where else you might try to point this to next.

Troy

Hopefully with Chuck Moore retiring the chair, the incoming President would like to take some action, rather than making the usual respond of "Under consideration"?

This is the statement I am responding to, not some other hypothetical problem associated with nothing in this world.

I don't feel the previous comments are anything but a poorly formed attempt at diverting attention from this post. As I said before, the book is not perfect, but does contain a lot of detailed information not availble elsewhere. The stuff about putting it on line in likely not economical. Paper money collecting is a small part of numismatics, not the biggest part. It is not as big as decimal coins or mint products. This site is able to survive because much of the work is not paid for, but the interest continues in paper collecting despite all the hype about prices being incorrect by some members.

As prices change, both up and down, new levels will emerge. Cutting trees is how paper is made as all are aware.  Internet sites use up a lot of electricity and require monthly fees to connect a computer to it. There are a great many collectors who do not use a computer, but it sure is easy to carry a book and make notations where errors are found and prices need adjustments.

Only a handfull of collectors carry a hand held computer, the vast majority have some book or note pad with them at shows.

One of the early comments was about Charlton's getting with the times and getting the book on line. As this doesn't appear imminent, it is up to the brave souls with lots of funds to publish their own on line book. Of course, it would need its own numbering system for notes as the one currently used is already owned by the book people.

Rick

"Not really wanting to re-open old wounds, but one of the things mentioned was about Charles Moore finishing as CPMS President shortly. It implies that he has done little to assist the paper money society in its quest for improvements in things like the Charlton Catalogue".

It appears to now mean something much different than how it reads. Thanks for translating it for us who took you literally.

Those of us with the funds to assist the industry would rather build on what we have now, I am not aware of anyone who wants to reinvent the wheel.


Troy

Sorry you had such difficulty understanding what I said.

When one of our members is accused of something (or not doing something), it is my position to defend him and/or explain the situation.  Without Mr. Moore, the CPMS may well have slid into receivership.  He is also the President of the CNA, a former President of CAND and a current member.

I think the CPMS could use some financial assistance. The dues do not even begin to cover expenses.

Rick