Charlton Catalogue and XXI century.

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I don't agree with those that say Charlton's won't make money with an Online Catalogue.
I will take an example. Wine Spectator Magazine. Charlton's should take one's inspiration from Wine Spectator Magazine. They still sell their magazines but you can suscribe online, if you want too. It costs 49,95$ US a years to see articles online. 50% Off if you are a member. There is a lot of information every weeks on wines, food novelty that you don't find in the REAL magazine. I receive my magazine at home and I can log myself to the website if I want. Imagine, if Charlton's guide would do the same with the CPMS help...60$ Can dollars for a years. 50% OFF if you are a CPMS member, you would have access to all new updates every months with several articles wrote by CPMS members...a sort of fusion between CPMS newletters and Charlton's guide, add to that few sponsors like Coins shops, Ebay dealers, Unitrade plastic protection and you are in buisness...I don't see where the problem is? Put a charlton's guide online for 60$ a year. I will suscribe tomorrow morning, like Travsy said, I don't worry people buying UNC 2$ 1935 French for 6000$ and driving two BMW not being able to pay 60$ a year... If Charlton's don't change soon, it will be for Canadians like the Eaton's Catalogue, just a souvenir...  

I would like something else. Perhabs people think that I am bashing the Charlton's, what I am not doing. On the contrary, I am defending Paper Money collectors. Just Imagine a couple of dealers ( and not necessairly those we want) that invest few bucks in a Website Online and trying to boot Charlton's butt. If they furnish a best service than Charlton's Catalogue I won't be surprised to see Charlton and CPMS losing ground without knowing what happen to them. Who will then fix prices?? Charlton's...CPMS.We don't mind now it will be dealers! Yes it will be this NEW website...Who will follow who do you think? who will disapear? Certainly not the dealers according to me. It's time for Charlton's guide to wake up or die. My great father always said. One doesn't try to save stables while the house is burning.

It looks like there are two schools of thoughts here.  One defends the old way, because they believe the new way usually does not work. And they subcribe to the theory of if it ain't broke...
The other school advocates the new way, the e-way. They believe computer and internet have changed everything, even in a hobby in which probably more than half of the 'members' are more than 40s, and most if not  all use computer and surf internet. Today, most publications have internet or e-version. It is a matter of survival for these magazines and other publications to have  internet presence.
.       Some people believe Charlton’s did not want to do online catalogue partly because of costs, if that is so, it is short-sighted.   First, the editing and production of catalogue are done on computer to begin with, like almost everything else.  Secondly, there is no such thing as high cost of putting things on internet, because the things are in your own computer.  Yes, you do need to buy some softwares, so to allow people to register and pay online, but that is minute relatively speaking.   The emphases of the new e-catalogue are more on technical aspects, like changeovers, new inserts, anomalies, rather than pricing trends, since in many cases the listed prices are just 'opinions' of dealers who have much to gain as prices change.  If you want the prices, consult ebay.
    I believe, just speculation on my part, mind you, the cost of updating is overstated.
         Think of the benefits to, yes, Charlton’s.  Feedback from the subscribers is instantaneous, so is the updated information.  You can be sure most subscribers will still want to buy the catalogue, because online catalogue is not permanent.  We love things on paper, black and white.  Paper money collectors love keeping records especially the kind on paper.    If Charlton’s wants to protect its sales of new catalogues it could stop updating the e-catalogue in the last 3 month prior to the publishing of new catalogue, i.e., if the new catalogue is coming out in July,  Charlton’s could justifiably  stop updating the e-catalogue in April so that it could concentrate on the new printed catalogue.  So instead of losing money it could actually get income from 2 sources: subscription fee for e-catalogue and money for the printed catalogue.  I am sure collectors are happy too because they could get updated info quickly, since there are collectors who are not part of the forum and Charlton’s must have its own inside track.    
     ( Besides, may be , just may be, there is a two for one deal opportunity here. For those interested, collectors could save money by becoming a subscriber of this e-catalogue as well as the member of CPMS, which would have  a e-newsletter replacing the current quarterly letter. (that means cpms would save money on stationary, postage and printing, because many members would  rather print off the internet rather than waiting to receive the printed copy.    morever, dreams really  taking wings now, for those techies, they could load these into their pda's so that they could access the ecatalogue and newsletter anywhere, without printing out (save tree)
        Looking ahead, being online opens the door for possible foreign sale: foreign dealers who normally won’t bother to send a cheque (for the book and postage)  for a Charlton’s catalogue could easily take flyer on this ecatalogue paying online.
sweet dreams.
Don.  (not an insider)

Great post the last one, agree with the majority, not this part however.........

"there is no such thing as high cost of putting things on internet, because the things are in your own computer.  Yes, you do need to buy some softwares, so to allow people to register and pay online, but that is minute relatively speaking"

I am afraid such a simplified view of the project proposed would result in a total costing estimate nightmare and overall project execution disaster.

It could very well be a viable project but a project manager and CTO like talent with deep nearly identical IT experience would be doing the cost and effort analysis for me and then that would be double checked. I have had highly qualified Waterloo and MIT CTO talents get costing estimates wrong in the past. They would have to do some homework before coming back to me with some estimates that would even begin to pass the sniff test.

Of course the Internet is considered a lower cost alternative (and nearly a must do or die evolutionary step) but there is a world of knowledge and experience that must be obtained before one can have any degree of certainty as to whether or not the project can make a net return worth the effort at this stage of the markets evolution.

Just because it hasn't been done yet is not evidence in itself that it isn't viable, this I am certain of.

If it does get off the ground, taken on by a credible team, lead by a recognizable name, I would be the 1st to make a capital investment in the venture should raising capital be required. I would however be grilling those involved before any cheques were cashed. It should also be stated that the project does not need to make a positive return in year one to be deemed successful from my point of view; profitability in year two would be the focus.

I have a few others that I could bring in as investors as well. A project like this is considered very modest and would probably fetch angel investment blocks of $10,000 to $25,000 depending on each investors interest level and piece of the pie. I would think I could raise up to the 1st $100,000 or so with my network and the rest would be the typical dog and pony show to raise the remaining capital.

Troy

The way I see it we already have a great yearly edition of Charlton for pricing and THIS SITE for information on anything current.

You can't get more up to date than who found what and where yesterday. Lists, complete with, prefix, high and low serial numbers and location found are updated every few days.  All this is FREE and available to anyone who has a computer. THANK YOU, PAUL.

One thing definately missing is minute by minute pricing. I know for sure that Paul would love to handle that.  

As to the current pricing of the $10 BE 2003 series, as listed in Charlton, you just have to go back to the first posts on BEK, L and R and check the date.  All three were first reported between Feb 24 and Mar 5. I beleive the pricing committed had a deadline of March 31. Very little was known about these notes so the pricing had to be a guess on the low side.

Yes I would actually like to shout out a big THANK YOU to Mr. Wallis as well (among many others).  This site is a wonderful place.

  Blush

I appologize if I mis-read the initial post. I thought it indicated Charlton should changed to "modern" ways of publication. I assumed that to be internet publishing, as they already use every modern typographical and printing tool available.

I still don't understand how a lot more grading categories helps the hobby in anyway. Calling something "ultra GEM UNC" is just silly. We've had this discussion many times before, and I still say. I disagree that UNC notes are impossible to find, though I admit that the new banding process does make it more difficult than just walking into a bank. I believe I've supported the concept of a GEM UNC and a Regular UNC, to help seperate between the "technical" UNC and the "visual" UNC (the former being notes that have special visual appeal), but it's a subjective call and you just know the Russian Judge will always argue against it. I'm still not clear what the "grading debate" and Charlton have to do with one another so I think that if this is the issue, someone should start a new thread.

As for publishing, it's not cheap. Even the Wine site derives most of it's money from advertizing and most wineries have more money for advertizing than most coin shops. This site runs "free", but I've run into money problems and a number of you have helped out with your donations. If I charged for my time from the beginning, including all the time spent on researching, learning, and rejecting possible technologies and solutions, and time spent rebuilding after some technical problem, it most definately would not be free.

If you charge an online subscription fee, you have an obligation to provide 24/7 access, complete and total backups and customized solutions and support. That's at least a full time job, and that person(s) need to eat. Yes, anyone can setup a website these days, but making it relivant, and keeping it updated is by far the bigger cost.

We could ask for advertizing dollars to support us and stick banner ads up, but 1) I hate banner ads, and 2) that would just take advertizing dollars away from CCN. I want to augment CCN and Charlton, not suplant them.

I do very much agree that there may well be better technical methods of handling that gathering of trend, pricing, and new data, but my experience with trying to bring the CPM Journal into new collaborative publishing tools turned into a frustration for both the editor and I.

I agree that there is a need for our specialty market to change and adapt, but I also think that it's premature to expect those changes to happen immediately. Competive presurres may drive it, but more likely the existing companies will self-adapt when the timing, and profitiability, are right. Me, I spend too much time on the "bleeding edge" of technolgy and I seem to get the right ideas before the time is right (www.telepix.com , www.phochron.com , www.yesvideo.ca). All great ideas and systems, but they sure are taking a long time to catch on.

As always, I'll try to keep this site current, and would LOVE to work with CCN, Charlton, and the CPMS to help move things along.

 I don't agree with you Paul that Coins Shops do not make enough money to put advertising . I don't know in Ontario, but in Quebec most of the coins shops are dealing coins, Paper money, stamps, gold, silver, jewelry and sometimes other illegal stuffs ah ahh...

I didn't say they don't do any advertizing, just that they don't spend anywhere near the same amount. I see ads on TV for local wineries, big ads in national newspapers, magazines, and the such. Never seen a coin shop advertize like that, we're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars per year per winery.

I've been away from this site for a while but it's always been nice to visit and receive an update on what's going on ! This topic has to be the most absurd debated......The "catalogue" gives general reference to the general public as a guide to values. PERIOD.

What's wrong with the general public being informed about approximate value?

Trying to post up to the moment values that are perceived but may not be real serves no value to the hobby and should be avoided to prevent the hobby being further harmed by dealers and speculators.

This should not be seen as simply a "quick value change.".......or, then again, maybe it's being driven that way....by GREED.

I always enjoyed this site when collectors exchanged views.....not dealers (and there is a difference).

;)eastguy

Dealers deal; collectors collect...l would defy anyone to tell me of any hobby where the two identities absolutly without quivocation agree on a price....anywhere; anytime...!!

Charltons.. is a book....a reference manual if you will ... they "say" they accept input from anyone..but realistically as a publisher they are going to check sources,,,qualifications..etc etc...who better to give them a "trend" on pricing than dealers..so what you have is a "dealer" book put out to the best ability of the publisher to give a representative view of what a "price" guide should be concerning a specific item within a specific time period.. a snapshot if youwill..

Now seriously....take a common 1954 ef 5.00 modified...anyone here going to pay 12 bucks for it?? didn't think so...what...10 at the outside if its exceptional for an ef...more like 8 at best....

and who here would not mind paying 20 percent (if you had the cash) over book for an unc 1935 $25.00 French radar ... yah okay shut up about radars I know...

Steve is correct. Dealers earn all or part of their income from selling numismatically related items.
Some dealers are full time at it, others are part time, many collectors sell on ebay, very few collectors don't sell at a profit all or part of their group of notes.
Most collectors are would-be dealers, and the goal is to turn a profit eventually with their collections. Nothing wrong with that, nor is there anything wrong with being a dealer.

I cannot speak for the Charlton catalogue as I am not a contributor. I can speak for trends as virtually all the input is from dealers, as am I.

Trends is the suggested retail price. It is not 100% perfect, but at least the attempt is made.  

A couple of points. A "coin" show cannot succeed without dealers, collectors and an auctioneer. These three things go hand in hand. A collector cannot have much success if there are no dealers, and dealers buy most of their stock from collectors. One group cannot live without the other. One shouldn't knock any other group as all are closely related in what they do.

Profit is not a dirty word, it is the concept of a free society. Every one works for a company of some sort that turns a profit into payroll, taxes and buildings. Even churches make a profit, they don't survive for long at a loss. Governments are the only group that knowingly spend more than they earn. Profit is the largest factor of collecting. The main goal after putting together a nearly perfect collection is watching the trends or Catalogue price go up so it can eventually be sold at a profit. Auctions are made from collections, either from the collector of his/her heirs, with the hope of getting more money than was spent to acquire the collection.

Rick

This topic has to be the most absurd debated......The "catalogue" gives general reference to the general public as a guide to values. PERIOD.

What's wrong with the general public being informed about approximate value?

Trying to post up to the moment values that are perceived but may not be real serves no value to the hobby and should be avoided to prevent the hobby being further harmed by dealers and speculators.

This should not be seen as simply a "quick value change.".......or, then again, maybe it's being driven that way....by GREED.

I always enjoyed this site when collectors exchanged views.....not dealers (and there is a difference).

1. Everything if the prices in the general guide don't accurately reflect the market. There is a difference between "approximate" and missing the boat completely.

2. There are many more collectors as well as "speculators" and "dealers" today then 5, even 2 years ago. With the explosion of the Internet accessibility to notes and buyers of notes has soared driving prices up hence the need for more accurate prices. Many collectors have become part-time dealers by default because of the growing acceptance of Internet transactions as a viable means of buying and selling.

3. Your comment about greed is partially true, accurate prices would help curtail that to a degree. To infer that only speculators and dealers are greedy is just silly.

4. As Simpson stated, it's a symbiotic relationship.

I feel flattered to be "pharaphrased"  .

I still miss the point. Those that collect Canadian Bank Notes other than "Government" types must wait every 6 to 7 years for a new catalogue..........how do they ever "survive" without more frequent updates? These notes tend to have their own severe price trends.

Maybe the definition of a "collector" should be "Canadian Bank Notes" and  "dealers/ebayers/speculators"  the label for "Canadian Government Paper Money" notes ?

I thought the "speculators/dealers" simply kept in touch with the trends such as ebay and other internet sales venues to be able to "turn a buck". I believe collectors call this "buyer beware".

Attempting to suggest some form of moment by moment price for "Canadian Government Paper Money" is absurd. PERIOD. ( Unless there is some recouping of lost taxes involved....if we want to go there).

;)eastguy

As some of you may have seen, there were a few posts made here over the last 24 hours that have since been removed. A couple personalities clashed and a clear warning to stick with the forum rules was blatantly ignored. The matter is being dealt with in private, as it has no place in the public forums.

Let this be a warning to all: Check your egos at the door and if you have any personal problems with other people here, nobody wants to hear about them. If anything of the sort flares up, rest assured that the forum rules will be enforced. If any of the participants of this most recent spat have the nerve to rekindle their dispute in this thread, they will be dealt with harshly for ignoring repeated warnings and multiple counts of breaking forum rules.

Now that we're back on track from that little detour, this thread is reopened for discussion regarding the Charlton Catalogue in the 21st century.

Discussion resumed!