The Pricing Panel

News: Welcome to the Canadian Paper Money Forum.

I promised one of the moderators I would stay out of this, however.
 
Instead of beating around the bush, who are the members of the priceing panel you don't like, and who are those that you do like?
 
Part two, please name those you think should be on the panel for Mr. Cross's book.

I started this thread with asking all to take a look at the Pricing Panel.No where have I ever stated I did not like any of them,matter of fact,I have great respect for all of them,and what they are trying to accomplish.
That does not mean they have accomplished a stated goal,or that there isn't room for improvement.

Part two-Let the Panel decide,but  they must take into account the impact of on-line transactions ,specifically the huge trend setting prices that we see on ebay and other on-line auctions.

If you insist on a name,I nominate MonetaryMan to give impact statements to the Panel on trends in scarce Canadian notes.Look at his on-line auctions.
His knowledge of the market is expanding on a constant basis,according to what I see.

Now before someone gets silly,I have never bought,sold,or met the MonetaryMan.

And I second this, end this totally stupid discussion now.

What? Looking at the views to this thread,over 1200 of them,I'd say that is the minority opinion.

Why is this discussion stupid?Are you part of the pricing panel,currently,or in the past?
Would it be correct to assume you'd rather NOT see any evolving changes made to the Charlton Guide?Or are you just against seeing current pricing regarding scarce notes increased,as the market has dictated?

This has been a great debate,hope we can continue to identify the problem(s),clearly from past posts in this thread their are some,and help come to some constructive solutions.

respectfully,runningonempty

Tom
If you're going to make sense, apply logic and critical thinking to this discussion , frankly you can't be part of it.  

I have had more than my say in this thread and I am going to step away as it is clear that the panel does not have sufficient representation here to answer questions and address concerns. The discussion has been excellent and an essential cross check on the status quo.

I was invited to this thread in a post and some emails I received after I said I wanted to sit this one out!

I understand this issue is important to many who have been writing me and I can assure it remains important to me as well. I am very passionate about making sure the information being fed to the market I serve is accurate and I can be very difficult to convince.

Let me come back to you in the near future with a follow up.

Always a pleasure to discuss market related issues, even when very controversial.

Troy

Well, less full of self, I will wade in on this again.

I concur with those more prudent than those that promote fast pace prices.

I remain less than convinced by the spewing
monologues brimming with hyperbole and bereft of substance put forward by those that want immediate market pricing.

The TSX has an old system that may be of use......  
but it involves going with the "daily" market and is not a realistic system for Canadian Bank Notes. Not enough demand and nowhere near the required activity to support even basic service levels.

A "Catalogue" published online with ongoing updates is likely the future but for now puts the "collector" at significant and unacceptable risk.
Might as well cancell all paper publications...catalogues, newspapers, trash news etc

Just a "collectors" view.

;)eastguy

P.S. A two hour drive is all that we needed to get "Stoned" from here and had no reason to brag about where we were at (collectors are just that way).

For the record I am not advocating minute by minute pricing or a market which provides such. That was not the topic of this thread as evidenced by its subject; nor is it required to solve the issue raised. Efforts were made in this thread by me to greatly discourage this topic from being diverted in this direction after Paul's post. If this effort needs renewed energy I am happy to provide it because once again no one here, to the best of my understanding, has or is advocating or supports minute by minute pricing in any way shape or form.

Eastguy at the end of your post you felt it was necessary get personal despite past moderator warnings that this is not permitted.

If you have anything to say on a personal level you should probably contact that person directly.

Troy.

Before being critical of eastguy, this site has rules.

They are:
Rule #1: No commercial ads, no profanity, no advocacy of violence or law-breaking, no libel, slander, flaming, insults, harrassment or degrading other members. We will enforce this!  

Such rules should be enforced.

When Bill Cross attempts to price a catalogue, he sends out a large document to several people, some of whom do not reply. As gathering information is a non-paying function, one cannot make anyone else do anything with it beyond toss it in the garbage. The pricing panel is thus limited to those that reply. The information is only as good as what is submitted.

Extremes in high prices and extremes in low prices are often blended to average down the values. Trends in no different in CCN, I have a small group of dealers that contribute information. Many of them contribute nothing.

Rick

Helpful piece of info Rick, that is the part about the panel, the subject of this thread. There is no confusion about what the forum rules are.

There are some of us who would like to hear more about the fine details of the pricing process and welcome further disclosure from you on it. As stated before I believe increased transparency would be very helpful in addressing some concerns raised.

This was especially helpful: "The information is only as good as what is submitted".

I have some information on the USA and Australian process (30 contributing pricing panel members who buy sell and collect daily, online and offline) that can be shared at the appropriate time.

Troy.

The hardest part is getting someone to contribute freely, at no compensation.

Dealers will make noise that prices are out of whack, too high or too low, but most of them contribute nothing.

I send out trends gathering information regularly, but to those that contribute nothing, it doesn't get sent again.

Public auctions are good for information, one needs to figure in the taxes and hammer fees without regard to who the buyer is. Ebay is one method of information, often with extremes of high/low over a short period of time, and unless the grade in known, much can be taken with a grain of salt.

Prices in trends attempt to reflect the market, with limited resources and often poor information. I need to round down prices when some dealers suddenly puch for higher prices as if it relects their stock or a recent purchase.

A comment from one person was that all the prices are fine makes me wonder if the person actually sells anything.

When a dealer is bidding above current trends or current book prices, it then stands to reason that that price is too low.

While paper is only a small part of the overall market, that market tends to be dominated by a handfull of large dealers, with many smaller dealers and eBay dealers taking up the slack.

If a 1937 $1 in Unc. regularly sells for $30, with highs of $40, lows of $20, then the trends would be $30. If the same note suddenly starts to sell for $35-$45, the trends would need to be increased.

If a dealer (who has a buy for these), starts to offer $50 each (and wants a limited number), trends would likely not reflect any changes unless the buy number is so high as to suck the market dry.

Some years ago, a large dealer in the west was buying Calgary Olympic sets for $500 each. The current market price was $275 per set. He made it very clear that when the order for 2000 sets was filled, he wanted no more. Trends did change for a brief period of time until the order was complete.

In the case of notes that are rare, the trends or book price merely reflect the information given. The price of a 1935 $25 note in VF or EF is how much? Perhaps the dealers and collectors who submitted prices never had one, never sold one, never seen one. Perhaps the one that contributed sold 4 of each and thus overwhelms the book price as the only major contributor. It is this sort of thing that makes it difficult to establish a base price for anything even slightly rare.

Rick

Rick,

Another informative post, thank you.

Given what you have said in your last 2 posts have you modified your earlier position that the prices are an accurate representation (at the time they are complied) of the overall online and offline market reality. Or are they simply the best we have to work with at present, which is not in dispute.

Furthermore do you have an appreciation and tolerance now as to why there are questions and concerns being raised by many, including some of the top collectors and dealers of Canadian paper money in the world who would like to see the process improve.

Troy

The prices published are an accurate representation of the prices submitted, and these prices are averaged or rounded.

One needs to know a lot more details of sales, and these details depend on the truthfullness of the contributors.

I really doubt Gatewest will reveal how many of what note sold for what price, nor could he really be expected to reveal information.

If one walks the floor at a coin show, we all know that the price written is not necessarily the price the item will be sold for. If a collector pays book price or double book price or half book price, it remains a private transaction.

The concerns expressed, so far, in this topic are mostly opinions of the writters. Few people understand the logic of attempting to compile prices on things that sell so few compared to regular commodities. It is easy to figure out the price of commonly traded notes, the rest depend on correct and proper information being compiled, with regular contributors and dated information.

The greatest contribution of the Charlton paper money books is the numbering system, then the number originally printed (which is amended each year), and finally prices. It has taken years to put the book together in order so that the public reading it can gain an appreciation of the complexity of the work.

It is too easy to slam the book, demand on line "free bee" information. This site and membership in the CPMS give updated information. The paper money market is far too small for it to afford daily, weekly, or monthly trends.

The next time I insert the paper trends into CCN, it will reflect information from the Charlton books, plus any other information of which I am aware.

Rick

Rick,

Regarding this from your post: "The prices published are an accurate representation of the prices submitted". Not in dispute and very glad and reassuring to hear, assuming this is true of course and I have no reason to believe it is not.

Who submits (understanding there is serious concern that the ever expanding and important online "mass market" is being under-represented), how many submit, how each person is weighted, how often they submit, and how the submissions are time adjusted for the need to compile, print and distribute the text are some of the outstanding areas then that require analysis.

Troy

Assuming this is a question. Who submits to the Charlton, I don't know. Only Bill would know that and it is doubtful he would divulge the information beyond the names mentioned in the book.

Who submits to trends is a private matter as well. I get information from dealers who deal in this material and from a private individual who tracks all sales on ebay (where the grade is known). I also track prices in auction where I can determine if the grade is as offered. I also hear from collectors with specific information.

Rick

This is now a fair exchange of ideas and concerns.

I thank RS for his support and apologize to Monetary if my comments were perceived as a personal affront.

My motive was simply to respond to a comment made about the Rolling Stones concert which was
held in this area. We don't often have the opportunity to brag as most big events are held in Upper Canada. If some Upper Canadians consider this a personal attack it is likely a symptom of Geographic jealousy........and I'm not a native of the east. I'm Canadian!

The most recent exchange on this thread appears to be more constructive, amiable and worthy of consideration. I encourage more as that's how we "collectors" learn more about our hobby.

;)eastguy

Some years ago, CCN had a trends panel of 6-8 major dealers (mostly coin stuff). It didn't work as some contributed, others did not.

The main difference with the paper and the book is that the paper comes out every two weeks, and mistakes can be quickly corrected. When I make one, or the young lady who puts the paper together makes one, it is pointed out rather loudly, and it does get corrected.

There is no attempt to be a comprehensive in trends as the book is. I only cover 1935 to 1967. I would like to expand it, but at the expense of other topics of interest. Some suggested shortening mint products, or dropping tokens or cameo coins, however, none of these are being comtemplated right now.

Rick